Chapter VII: Part 7

Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or corrections which you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I have made some notes myself.

On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226, the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander, the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until midnight.”

Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226, you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the club and work for room and board.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be approximately November 1, 1963?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November 1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the more accurate recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State Fair closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about 1 week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963, Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the fact that it was Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who it was he was having trouble with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was having trouble with somebody?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent me to get the gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of Howard?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149. Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November to bring the gun up to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say. It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone handle with dark brown spots on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over at the drug store?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”

I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked with the FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him making the statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along that line?

On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on it.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort, either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the business cards, something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was from?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one of the Dallas police departments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of the Justice Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often, if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You worked for the Tear Plating Company?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.

Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where he wanted to talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for Bob Craven and Deke Miles.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you to believe that they were homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he was getting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his baldness?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other people kidded him about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s making any inquiry concerning a business partner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to open another club in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something, a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?

Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a bar called Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about any friends or acquaintances down there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel or the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed about the dogs he was going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. The what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227” and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.

(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when it was you wrote it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas before you wrote that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is the actual letter that you wrote?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as it is here, but in a neater hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter and then rewrote it so it would be neater.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of that letter.

Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then we can refer to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not come into our possession in that way, you see.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy made for you if you would like to do that.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize those as photographs of anything?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army discharge, the front and back sides.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you gave to us?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it over to us on Wednesday, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also produce on Wednesday a diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you turned over to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been photographed in those pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1. There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that notation?

Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church to which I belong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the only place in the Bible where the name can be found.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask about the notebook?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time, and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that you think would be of value to the Commission?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this deposition?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the matter that the Commission is investigating?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection therewith.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3 days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.

TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II

The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at 1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign “W. W. (Bob) II”,—does that need to be in there?

Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your name.

Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry, or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy.

I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter—written request made to you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t receive a letter to come?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Bob.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal documents that you always sign that way too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it “W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II.”

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thirty.

Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office—balls, bags, shoes—etc.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year—approximately the middle of January.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work. In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and worked myself up to a regional manager’s position.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what company?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth—made district manager in San Jose, Calif., made regional manager February 1963, in Atlanta, Ga., and stayed until May of 1963, and my father’s death brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks, and was terminated in July due to my past record.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “past record”?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old, that’s 11 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because I still had a bunch of them out—I had three charges in Fort Worth, eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3 years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort Worth to August of 1952.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from February—well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December 1953—do you want all this?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and I was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December 1953, under a conditional pardon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the State of Texas—Texas authorities?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month.

Mr. HUBERT. In Denver?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my parole officer—I asked him should I tell them I’m on parole, and he said “No,” and three places I worked after I was there he called and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a truck and the man told him—do you want the words he used?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. “I don’t give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a good job.” And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me when I came back to Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is “unadjustment, unable to adjust.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado—in Denver, and in August 1955, I left Denver, Colo., and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad and drove down to Huntsville—in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville with me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you knew that you would be eventually sought?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into Huntsville?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they said, “We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion. You are going back.” And I said, “Well, I’m not going back today. I’ll go back tomorrow,” and I went back the following day and turned myself in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged in April 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was picked up in Florida for investigation. I got low on money—I wrote some hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va., and I paid them off and that was my latest.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes: in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how much?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months—four months.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—without condition. That was in a county jail. I was a trustee—I was head cook.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then—no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the two you have already told us about?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged—excuse me—I was picked up in January or February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at Arlington, Va., in August 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I—of being picked up for investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. None.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all—formally, I mean, by actual indictment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—no indictments.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January 1964, when you were unemployed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working—my wife was working and I lived with her and my mother.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that’s one reason I left Dallas. The person who is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified—the reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and I couldn’t prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn’t prove it, and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field—I had made man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2 weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas, Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man’s name is Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I’ve got him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank and the photostats of the canceled checks that cleared the company.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making—that your opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the first syllable of your last name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the president of the company and he said “No.” So, I went to work for this bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he has an interest in the supply business and he said, “I’ll give you a break,” and I’ve been doing real good since. He just gave me a break.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in the small—when I say “small” I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place, singles and doubles tournaments.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first place—no.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. $750.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla.

Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year—what tournament was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It’s called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run it from about May to about August. It’s 8 games across 16 lanes, handicapped from 2 to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You won $750—which was not first place, but what?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place.

Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob Litchfield?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6 months of 1963?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House Apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address—Henderson and Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name that runs that.

Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—she does not run it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do—Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on—right off the corner of Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek’s boarding house or apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Never?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley—I don’t remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric Co.

Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let’s see, spasmodically from September to October and November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter part of August or the first of September.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands at a bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext that I might build it and run it for her.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife and had to have married her for any other further business to have been transacted.

Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are a man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that.

Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this thing was to go forward?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful.

Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you can’t point to any words that gave you that impression?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there quite a bit.

Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly.

Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said, “Hello, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an open or public club like the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the proper place for a private club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5 years—no conviction or anything,” you can.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you were there with Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did speak to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people taking pictures of the club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in, then he had to see two or three people before me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else around there that you were from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the doorman to whom you said that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of being of Jewish descent.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking a Seven-Up or a Sprite.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman, and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by the door—have you ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he said all of them would sign them except one.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.

Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers in his hand which you understood to be releases?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one was signed.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about buying the Vegas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack that night?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be playing poker then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to particularly the death of the President, about how long before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before the death of the President?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the next time I saw Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said, “I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent of it. Nothing more was said.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And he made some calls and called me back and said the police department right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday, I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15 or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the FBI?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.

Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did?