Chapter VI: Part 6

Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made, either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15 minutes and maybe longer.

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max Phillips, Secret Service, were present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning, April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr. Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr. Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.

I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s.

Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we expect you to tell us.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the recording we will all listen to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record——

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the record its being at such a point in feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it can be located?

Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.

(The tape recording commenced with the following):

“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,” et cetera, et cetera, et cetera——

(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)

“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a Communist?”

“Yes; I am a Marxist.

“What is the difference.

“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.”

(End of transcription.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely how this can be identified at a later point in time.

Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they?

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way without injuring it?

Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the paper tabs were?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark with your initials?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.

Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that excerpt that we played?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you were talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has been referring to. Did he have an accent?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern speech patterns?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.

I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5222.

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223 which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E. Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that name on that sheet of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.

Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they were there and the phone numbers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message slips around, the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on those sheets of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that are shown in that photograph?

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed throughout the day at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they purport to depict.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in his desk.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least three small-sized notebooks that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7, and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s automobile.

I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches.

Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook No. 3164.

Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A. The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would be the last name on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be Bonnie?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that name familiar with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as a waitress at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B in the 5225 series.

Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you recognize any of the names on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has something to do with taxes, admission tax.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and count the tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for such records?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax records in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy would work on that together and count the stubs.

But I don’t know where he kept record of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it——

Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on weekends?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there was any?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August, and September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225.

I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down there.

Do you recognize those names?

Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he was a comedian; I am not sure.

There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would you read that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t make it out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, “and friends” and on the same line to the right of the words “and friends” and under the 600 it says “10” with two zeros.

Do you recognize—does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you think that is Jack Ruby’s writing?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is all there is on that page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225.

Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I can’t recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote down in my notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of the names or notations on that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it.

The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few times, but I don’t know what it was about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has the words revenue from the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention, but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or connection that you may have heard that name used?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I can’t recall the last name of the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we showed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K.

Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize, Brother Bear.

The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss Norma Bennett, or Barnett.

I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address yourself to the same questions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any that is on here. There appears to be the word “taxes”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and something about the laminating company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those—can you tell whose handwriting those notations are in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby’s practice to make notes for himself of things he had to do any particular day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize any of the names or notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

There is Ed Pullman’s name on there. I have testified about him previously.

And Joe Williams, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here “baby bottle.” Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with any baby bottles?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation “Goodwill Industries”. Did Jack—do you remember having anything to do with Goodwill Industries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards, their manufacture, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word “Mike Shore” appears to be the word “blades”. Did Mike Shore have anything to do with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read “Stubbe Machine”, some sort of machine that looks like Stubby.

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.

Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do it himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel exist all the time you worked for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas of the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my—as far as I know, he had never given them away before this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this photograph Q in the 5225 series?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte Timmons?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met the man. I don’t remember the name.

Excuse me 1 minute.

I believe that is a woman’s name. There was a woman by the name of Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you recognize any of the names or notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty’s name is on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack’s. I met him at the Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in the afternoon, or morning, when there weren’t patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but other than that it was during business hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack’s connection with Petty was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before.

And this Dr. Uhleviteh was Mrs. Grant’s doctor.

The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don’t recollect what there was about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn’s name is on there.

There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we have mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my wife’s maiden name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it and date it where it appears in the interview?

I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964. C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the bottom of the first page.

(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire, Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated November 29, 1963.

There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and continuing through the number 154 on the last page.

I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.

You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June was the 22d of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made of the other correction?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”

After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going to write something in there.

He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y” and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed out the words “almost every hour.”

Are there any other additions or corrections?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.

Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase “with the revolver”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall him having the revolver with him.

Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.

Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.

Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about another occasion?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he had it on one occasion with him in the club before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the revolver, and he just brought it in all together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it. I believe he had it at that time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and take it away from the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the club I was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the money into the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on those occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in the car, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for him and went back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions, did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph Paul with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk, and Jack drove off then alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he drove off alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number of times this would have been when he drove off alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the trunk of Jack’s automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun in his pocket as he was driving off?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the front seat of the car between us, right by my side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the car any place in the automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key to open the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring with the key on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk unlocked that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and you remove the key and it automatically locks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?

Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the same space all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along this line?

Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his person.

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the trunk of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a money bag on one occasion.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?

Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was in and put them all in a larger sack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his person, how did he have it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report, are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and does this refresh your recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have refreshed my memory to some extent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report, are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?

Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after he came into the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of closing the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions to Andy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something about calling the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were going to be open?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a result of having read the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial position of the club was my own opinion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?

Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own, even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well, maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you said at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that you would change?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151 which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister was later in the afternoon.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or corrections or changes you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to the club is something I have established yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI, you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about that now?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the time——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time, approximate time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would you now alter your estimate of what time it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30 when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30 and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?

Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock and she left while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going to the synagogue?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2 hours earlier than this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to get.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on the telephone.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently started to doze off, to go to sleep.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.

In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the Central Expressway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.

Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey Oswald in a newspaper.”

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign photographing that sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign before you got out to photograph it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we pulled over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?