Chapter XXXVIII: Part 38

Mr. HERNDON. You can see and feel your pulse beat and in a moment you can see how it records. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. You have been very cooperative. I don’t think we will have any problem.

Mr. RUBY. You can see the differences of nature—if certain things are wrong or right, can’t you?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I have to very carefully interpret what I see. I’m going to take all these things together at a later date into consideration, and I don’t see any difficulty.

Mr. RUBY. Because—I want my chief to understand this here and see that.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you a little more relaxed now?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be. I don’t want to begin until you feel you are perfectly relaxed.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I’m very much relaxed because I have nothing—I’m not sparring with it, so I must be relaxed.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I appreciate your cooperation very much and you are cooperating with me very well.

In a moment, you can move your hand a little bit to get a little circulation. You probably felt just a little tingling sensation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I felt a little bit of throbbing in these two fingers.

Mr. HERNDON. Are they too tight?

Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.

Mr. HERNDON. I can relax this a little bit on your arm. I just want it close enough so that they won’t slip, just about like that. I don’t want this to cause you any discomfort to you. Now, if you are about ready?

Mr. RUBY. I am ready.

Mr. HERNDON. You remember, I’m going to ask you just the questions that we discussed before and that’s all.

Mr. RUBY. You mean that’s all?

Mr. HERNDON. Oh, no; this is just series 1, Mr. Ruby. We’re going to cover many questions.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to go rather deliberately slow on this first one until you become acquainted with the procedure.

Mr. RUBY. Believe me, I know the answers, so you can ask me as fast as you like.

Mr. HERNDON. During the test, again, if you will keep your feet on the floor at all times, flat on the floor at all times, and try not to move. I know it’s hard to sit perfectly still for the 3 to 4 minutes, but it is to your advantage to try to keep from moving. If you have to cough or move, I’ll probably observe it and take it into consideration.

During the examination, Mr. Ruby, I know we have other people in the room, but I would appreciate it if you would just try to concentrate as if there were just you and me in here and these questions are coming out and if you know the answer in your own mind, I want you to truthfully answer them “Yes” or “No.” Do not give any qualifying statement or additional comments.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. On the other hand, if I come to one of these questions that you’re not sure whether you want to say “Yes” or “No,” there is some area in doubt, just don’t say anything and we’ll go back and discuss it later.

Mr. RUBY. Okay.

Mr. HERNDON. If you will, look right over here, look straight ahead at the wall and relax, and hear my question and give your answer to it, “Yes” or “No.”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. I will tell you when I am going to begin. I will tell you when this particular test is over, but do not relax or move until I give you the word.

Mr. RUBY. Very well.

Mr. HERNDON. As I say, you will hear a little scratching noise and I will be marking the paper as we proceed.

Mr. RUBY. Can I speak?

Mr. HERNDON. Right now if you want to; yes, sir.

Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I beg you to get Bill Alexander and Joe Tonahill back in here. I tell you. Will you do it, please.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let’s go on just like it is now. I don’t want you to have any apprehensions that we’re trying to keep anybody out.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. It’s taking me about a minute to get the instrument warmed up again here.

All right, I will now put a little pressure on that arm, Mr. Ruby, and I will let you know when I’m going to begin. Once again, just answer the questions truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”

(Reporter’s note: 3:10 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.

“Is your first name Jack?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you voluntarily request this test?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?”

Mr. RUBY (no immediate response). How can I answer that? I don’t have my driver’s license, but I don’t use it.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and we will discuss it. “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been arrested?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you take any medication this morning?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all my questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. This first series is over. If you will just sit still for a moment, I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move your arm and relax and get the circulation moving.

Mr. RUBY. I’m all right.

Mr. HERNDON. That wasn’t too bad, sir; was it?

Mr. RUBY (no response).

(Reporter’s note: 3:12 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, there are two questions I want to ask you about on our first series.

I know you couldn’t refrain from laughing and talking about that middle name of “Leon.” Do you want to further explain that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I don’t use it, so hence it’s sort of a remembrance of a very good friend of mine. I used it on my driver’s license, but since then it has become a habit of keeping it on my driver’s license, but I’ve never been called with it and very rarely do I sign papers that way, but once I stated it on my driver’s license, I had to follow through with it that way, and that’s the answer to it. Once you have it on your driver’s license, you have to have it the same way.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you like the name “Leon”?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I did more for sentimental reasons, but as I went along later I sort of dropped it.

Mr. HERNDON. Is it actually on your driver’s license, though?

Mr. RUBY. I think it’s Jack L. Ruby. No—Jack Leon Ruby. It’s Jack Leon Ruby on my driver’s license and that’s something that once you start with it, and its been years ago, when you renew your license, it remains the same, but outside of signing papers or contracts or anything of vital importance, you only find out it’s much simpler to sign “Jack Ruby.”

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, and one other question. I would just like to ask you what went on in your mind when you did answer the question “Yes” to “Have you ever been arrested?”

Mr. RUBY. Well, the police had taken me—I had been arrested, because when the police officer said, “Jack, come on, we’re taking you down,” you’re arrested.

Mr. HERNDON. When was this? Are you referring to this current or some previous time?

Mr. RUBY. Previous to that.

Mr. HERNDON. What situation was that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, it was—I was arrested for dancing after curfew. Some fellows smuggled in intoxicants after hours.

Mr. HERNDON. Was this here in your own place or some other place?

Mr. RUBY. At my own place. No felony crime, nothing serious—only misdemeanors.

Mr. HERNDON. You consider that was a misdemeanor?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; in other words—a $25 fine. I never have been in any criminal activity.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. Does your arm feel all right now?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Very good. We have finished with the first series.

Mr. SPECTER. I am now going to ask Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill to return between now and the time we start on the next test.

May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are back in the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Did the cardiounit disturb you at all other than just a slight tingling sensation?

Mr. RUBY. In this arm here [indicating left arm]?

Mr. HERNDON. Did that bother you before the series No. 1 group?

Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are now a veteran of the first series. You did real well. You cooperated very fine.

Now, we will proceed with series No. 2. I want to go over these questions with you so that you and I understand precisely and perfectly what they mean.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, in this series of questions, I am going to ask as one of the ones which is pertinent in this investigation, “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to now, but I’m going to ask you that question, sir.

Mr. RUBY. OK.

Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by that—that’s about as short and sweet as we can get it.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you, “Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You understand the difference—one is now and one is—have been perhaps sometimes in your youth or life—if you were affiliated with the Communist Party.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I understand.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question, Mr. Ruby: “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask: “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. It’s very similar, only it’s in the past tense.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, on those two questions—we can’t go through all of those groups which advocate the overthrow of the United States Government, so we are generalizing with respect to them.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You have indicated you understand them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and my answer is “No—no collaborating.”

Mr. SPECTER. I don’t think it is necessary to elaborate on that.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, in addition to those questions, I’m going to ask you a relatively simple question as this, that you should be able to answer “Yes” or “No.” “Were you born in the United States?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next question I’m going to ask you, you don’t have to answer it now. You can discuss it with me later or you can wait and decide what you want to answer to it. “Did you ever make a false official statement?”

Now, that’s a general question and I realize that, Mr. Ruby, and when I ask that question, obviously your mind probably went back to many things. We make a lot of official statements. Now, I’m asking that question in its broadest terms. In other words, to your recollection, have you ever made a false official statement?

Mr. RUBY. When you say “official”—for instance, in order to have a job years ago—I want to explain this to you. In order to work in a department store, I had to use another name because this other person would be the right age that I could work, but outside of that, officials—to any authorities—I haven’t.

Mr. HERNDON. Obviously, this department store thing came to your mind when I asked that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, sir, I’m glad you brought that out so I will have an understanding that that was in your mind. What I mean here, however, is something more in the nature of an application for a license, an application for a permit, an application for insurance—anything that would come within the jurisdiction of being somewhat a legal or semilegal form or application?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand what I mean by that question.

Then, I’ll probably ask, I understand you were born in 1911, is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. These are questions of identity—“Were you born in 1911?”

Now, let me see, gentlemen, if we have gone over all the questions. I have gone over all the questions with Mr. Ruby that I’m going to ask for this next series.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, prior to the administration of the second series, Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now leaving the room again.

May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now departed from the room.

(Reporter’s note: 3:20 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just relax. Can I get you a drink of water or anything, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No; I’m perfectly all right.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, very fine. Once again, if you will try to refrain from moving, simply look straight again, and sit perfectly still and answer the questions “Yes” or “No.” I again will tell you when I am going to begin, Mr. Ruby.

Now, are you relaxed? Are you OK?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. How does your arm feel? I noticed you had a little bit of pressure there around the cuff. Is the circulation all right?

Mr. RUBY. Fine.

Mr. HERNDON. You feel fine?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. It will take me a moment again here to get the instrument adjusted. Before I put any pressure on the cuff, Mr. Ruby, I’m going to just tighten this up just slightly, do you want to move up just a moment? Does that bind you in any way or is it too tight [checking tube around Mr. Ruby’s chest]?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just lean back relax. All right, sir. Now, we’re getting a better tracing. All right, I am going to now put a little pressure on and I will tell you when I am going to begin.

(Reporter’s note: 3:23 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m checking this just so you can raise and lower your arm and keep relaxed. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.

(Reporter’s note: 3:25 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I will now begin.

“Were you born in the United States?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been known by another name?”

Don’t answer that question. I didn’t review it before. Skip it. Just sit and relax.

“Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false official statement?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates violent overthrow of the United States Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in 1911?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. That concludes that series. Just sit still for a moment, sir.

All right, you may now move your arm and relax, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

(Reporter’s note: 3:27 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. There was one irrelevant question that I failed to mention here. We will discuss that in a moment, and that is, “Have you ever been known by another name?”

You might want to mention that to the gentlemen, as a matter of record. I told him to refrain from answering it. It’s really not that pertinent.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, we will bring it to their attention.

Mr. HERNDON. But, as long as I did ask it, if you want, I’d like him to answer it before the other gentlemen come in.

Mr. SPECTER. I think that’s all right.

Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had it changed legally, is that what you meant?

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, when I asked you that question, I realized I hadn’t gone over it.

Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.

Mr. HERNDON. Therefore—I know you hesitated to answer it.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I have two names—my name was Rubenstein and was changed to Ruby.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s what came to your mind, the fact that you actually had your name changed?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We are now between series Nos. 2 and 3?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. How many series do I have now?

Mr. HERNDON. I don’t know quite yet, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are back in the room.

Gentlemen, there was one question which Mr. Herndon did not go over in advance and that was, “Was Mr. Ruby ever known by any other name?” Since he did ask it, but since it was obvious as soon as he had asked it that he had not gone over it, he asked Mr. Ruby not to answer it, and when the series was over, he asked Mr. Ruby the question again and Mr. Ruby said that he had been known previously as “Jack Rubenstein” and had legally changed his name. With that one variation, all the questions asked during that series were identical with those discussed before you left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. My apologies, gentlemen, but it was an irrelevant question.

Mr. Ruby, we shall now proceed to what we call series No. 3. Here again these questions are going to be intermixed, some rather pertinent to what we’re interested in here, others general questions. Let me go over the relevant questions, first, Mr. Ruby.

“Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you understand, Mr. Ruby, when he says “the shooting,” that means the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Repeat that over again—let me hear it again.

Mr. HERNDON. I think you realized that, but I want to make certain that you understand, and I want to go back and break down that question—between the assassination of President Kennedy and the shooting—now, the shooting I mean is the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—yes—the answer is “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. I realize you understood the question, but the shooting in some other person’s mind could be many things. I want to keep these sentences as concise and short as possible.

“Did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand the question, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did it?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Is that question all right, do you understand it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes—I take that back. Sunday morning—I want to elaborate on that—before I left my apartment—it evidently didn’t register with the person because of the way I said it. In other words, the whole basis of this whole thing was that Mrs. Kennedy would have to come back for trial.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me ask you at this time—excuse my interruption, but why don’t you just address yourself to the general questions that are asked you. I think it’s all right.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. FOWLER. I don’t think it will help the Commission, and this may be in the form of a question later on, but just confine your answer to “Yes” or “No.”

Mr. RUBY. Well, the thing is this—I have to answer—ask me the question again.

Mr. HERNDON. Let’s go over it once more, Mr. Ruby, and I want you to be able to be in a position that you can freely, honestly, and truthfully answer it simply “Yes” or “No.”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, if there’s something in here in this area that troubles you, we can rephrase the question.

Mr. RUBY. Will you specify the time—the time element is very important.

Mr. HERNDON. The only time element is before—before you did it. Now, “before” is a very broad coverage?

Mr. RUBY. That’s it. That’s a difficult question to answer.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s the way the question is worded. Let me ask it again and see if you want to discuss it. “Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did it?”

Mr. RUBY [no response].

Mr. HERNDON. If you want me to reword that question, I’ll take it up with Mr. Specter.

Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you say this—“that Sunday morning, specifically?” That would be easier for me to answer.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, “Did you tell anyone you were thinking of shooting Oswald on Sunday morning?”

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, again, excuse me, sir.

Mr. RUBY. Fowler, it puts me in a tough spot when he asks me that question and I evade it.

Mr. FOWLER. I understand this, but I’m talking now specifically about in the presence of Mr. Alexander. Now, later on, if you want to answer it “Yes” or “No” to that question, it’s perfectly all right. I want you to fully understand the question.

Mr. HERNDON. I want to bow, of course, to Mr. Specter, of course, for the way the Commission desires it.

Mr. SPECTER. If you would like us to break it down, we could do it in two questions. “Did you tell anybody on Sunday morning that you were going to shoot Oswald before you did it?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, that’s easier to answer.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, we can ask you this: “Before Sunday morning did you tell anybody you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Now, that’s a better way to ask it—the last question.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ve covered all the time in two parts.

Mr. RUBY. The last question you asked me is a better way to ask me. The last question you asked, my answer is “No.”

Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ll want to ask you a followup question.

Mr. RUBY. Do you understand what I’m saying—did you understand what I said?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but we will want to ask you for the purpose of the test, “On Sunday morning did you tell anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll answer it.

Mr. HERNDON. If I could get the court reporter to read back how you phrased that question, so that we could both agree on it.

COURT REPORTER. “On Sunday morning did you tell anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. SPECTER. There are two questions. “Before Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” That’s all right for one question. Now, write this one down, Mr. Herndon. The question is “Before Sunday morning did you tell anyone that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Now, before Sunday morning means any time element beyond the time I left my apartment. Is that what you’re referring to when you say Sunday morning?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I’ll even change that and I’ll say “Before you left your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Now, the following question will be: “From the time you left your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Now, you better rephrase that. I hadn’t already left the apartment. Do you follow me?

Mr. SPECTER. Right. Well, I see what you’re driving at—you’re driving at the time.

Mr. RUBY. The time element is very important.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, we can make it in three parts: “While you were at your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Now, we’ve broken it up three ways. That would really be covered, Mr. Ruby, in the first part: “Before you left your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Now, you’ve got to get another question in there: “Previous to your arising that morning, have you told anyone you’re going to shoot Oswald?” You see my point?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; before you awakened, in other words?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. “Before you awakened on Sunday morning, had you told anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Before I awakened.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to leave any area of questionableness here or ambiguity—of course, you didn’t say in your sleep this, so perhaps we ought to phrase it “Before you went to bed on Saturday night or early Sunday morning did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you repeat that, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. “Before you went to bed——”

What time did you go to bed that night?

Mr. RUBY. At 1:15 or 1:30, but you must put it specifically—also, whether I received any phone calls from the time I went to bed and the time I arose. Do you follow me? In other words, I could clear myself by answering that question truthfully, but I could have received a phone call in between the time I went to bed and the time I awakened.

Mr. HERNDON. So, the area we’re trying to cover here, Mr. Ruby, as I see it is—if you did tell anyone you were thinking of doing this—the approximate time.

Is that what we’re getting at, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, we can phrase that in several different ways. If your recollection is that good that you specifically recall an incident, you can tell me how you want me to ask it.

Mr. ALEXANDER. May I make a suggestion?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Ask it, “Did you tell someone by telephone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I think it should be included, “Did I talk to anyone before going to bed?”

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter?

Mr. FOWLER. Now, we will certainly object to a question being framed by this attorney.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, do I understand your position correctly, that you are concerned about the disclosure of this information in the presence of Mr. Alexander?

Mr. FOWLER. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. But, do you have any concern about disclosing the answer to this question to the Commission?

Mr. FOWLER. None whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, would it be agreeable with you if Mr. Alexander leaves while this question is being formulated so we can understand it, and then that he comes back when we have formulated it?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack knows that I know the answer to it, so there’s no use in anybody getting upset about it.

Mr. RUBY. Are you sure you know the answer to it?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I think so, Jack.

Mr. FOWLER. It would be preferable if he would leave.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any objection to stepping out just while we formulate this question?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, not at all. Come on Joe.

Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t have to go.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander has now departed, may the record show.

All right, Mr. Ruby, we want to phrase the question in accordance with polygraph procedure in a way that gets to the point, as you see the point. So, tell us exactly what you have in mind here.

Mr. RUBY. Well, you had better remind me again.

Mr. HERNDON. Here’s the area we’re trying to cover. Here’s the question I originally asked you which created all this problem. “Between the assassination and the shooting”—now, let me start that again—“Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did?”

Now, I tried to put that as plainly as I could. I’m not interested here in the area of when——

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but if you’re speaking in the area of when, it’s pretty incriminating. It’s a long premeditation, then, of time element.

Mr. HERNDON. I think the Commission here has its question of whether or not you did tell anybody?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, if you have no objection to answering that question, we would like you to do so now for purposes of giving us information, and then we will test you in just a minute as we go through with the polygraph, if you’re willing to answer that question?

Mr. RUBY. Clayton?

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me say this—now, this is the very crux of your case. In other words, if there is premeditation on your part to murder or to kill, this can and will be used against you, and this information—let’s project it a little bit and say that you do get a new trial, and that between now and that the Warren Commission releases their information for public consumption or to the district attorney’s office or to anybody else, then, if your answer to these questions might be “Yes,” then it would be most difficult to appear and defend you.

Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m here to tell the truth. I don’t know how the heck to answer it. I appreciate you’re in a tough spot.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, as you can readily see, this is why we advised you not to take this.

Mr. RUBY. That’s why I want it, because I know what’s best for me.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, I don’t think you do, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. Can I overrule you, Clayton, where you won’t be too angry if I overrule you?

Mr. FOWLER. Well, I have no—I’m not going to put a cob in your mouth, Jack.

Mr. RUBY. Can I ask one more favor of you?

Mr. FOWLER. Sure.

Mr. RUBY. Will you let those two gentlemen back in the room, at your request?

Mr. FOWLER. Not at my request; no, sir.

Mr. RUBY. Please, Clayton?

Mr. FOWLER. If you leave that up to me, I say, “No.”

Mr. RUBY. All right, I’m going to answer your question.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, why don’t I just go over with you once again all of them, for this series of questions.

Mr. SPECTER. At this time, I would like to ask Mr. Ruby if he is willing to answer the question about the conversations. I would like to develop the information about the conversations so that we will know it is factual. This would be an extended question of the nature that the Chief Justice asked you on June 7—if you’re willing to answer my question to you at this time, which is: “Did you tell anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald at any time before you did it?” And, I would follow that up, if you answer that question, with, “Whom did you tell and when?” With that information, we can then formulate these questions for the lie detector test to see if you’re telling the truth.

Mr. RUBY. Clayton, please? I’ve got to do this? I’ve got to, because I told it to the Warren Commission.

Mr. FOWLER. In other words, these questions have already been talked about?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and will you ask them to come in?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I don’t know that they have. I have reviewed the transcript, but I don’t know that we’ve asked these before, but he answered everything that was asked of him in the last session.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was very voluntary.

Mr. SPECTER. We deliberately didn’t go into some areas, suffice it to say, for certain purposes. But this is the question we’re concerned with at the moment, and we would like an answer substantively, in addition to testing his truthfulness. It comes to a head when we try to formulate the questions for the polygraph, because we really have to get the underlying facts, and then we can point our efforts to see whether he’s telling the truth according to the indicators from the examination.

Mr. FOWLER. Again, I don’t believe certainly he understands the full complicity of this thing. If there are any questions that are asked that show premeditation on his part, I would respectfully ask that he decline to answer and that you decline to ask it.

Mr. RUBY. But it’s already in there. I’ve already told it to the Warren Commission.

Mr. FOWLER. Now, if there is an area that has been covered already and you still wish to go into it—I don’t want this man——

Mr. RUBY. So, would you mind calling Alexander in?

Mr. FOWLER. Listen, Jack, will you please listen to me? This man got up down there and asked the jury to send you to the electric chair.

Mr. RUBY. I know it.

Mr. FOWLER. He has not changed his opinion yet, and he will again ask it at some later date. Now, is this the kind of man you want to pussyfoot around in here with and let listen to these questions? Just “Yes” or “No”—if it is—we’ll bring him back in.

Mr. RUBY. Yes: I want him in here, and I want you to ask him to come in, please.

Mr. FOWLER. I won’t ask him to come in.

Mr. RUBY. Joe, ask him to come in.

Mr. TONAHILL. No; Clayton is your chief counsel and I’m going to respect his desires.

Mr. RUBY. Chief—I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I will ask him to come in, Mr. Ruby. I’m willing to bring him back, if that’s your request.

Mr. FOWLER. I would like this record to reflect that this is against the advice of his attorneys present, and that it will be very detrimental to, No. 1, his appeal, and No. 2, perhaps to any clemency that might be asked for in the future, and No. 3, for the actual trial of the case on the merits, if such ever occurs.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, the Commission can proceed and conduct this test and not bring him back. I want you to be clear on that point, that these men do not have to be here for the purposes of getting this information for the Commission, so we will know all the facts, or for the purposes of conducting this test. So, it’s really extraneous. It doesn’t really matter for them to be in here for the tests.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, why do you want them back?

Mr. RUBY. Because I happen to know what I’m talking about.

Mr. TONAHILL. Now, Jack——

Mr. RUBY. Joe, you’re not my attorney any more. We know it. We understand one another, please. You’re not helping me.

Mr. FOWLER. Let’s just direct our attention right now, Jack, to the things that are near to you. Why do you want Mr. Alexander here?

Mr. RUBY. I feel I don’t want him to think I’m holding out on anything. I don’t want him to have any idea that I’m reluctant to answer things in front of him, believe me.

Mr. FOWLER. Listen, at some future date—yes. Perhaps in a trial, another trial, yes. When you are on the witness stand, if you are able to go to the witness stand, perhaps these questions will be directed to you at that time, and you can make a full disclosure before a jury, but I respectfully request that you do not do it in the presence of a district attorney.

Mr. RUBY. But Clayton, they know all these questions already. Henry Wade, I spoke to, and I told him all this.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, if he knows them already, then why not just let him stay out? You’re not trying to impress him, are you? Do you think that he can do anything to help you right now?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; but the thing is that I have a few other thoughts in mind, as you well know about.

Mr. FOWLER. What are they, Jack?

Mr. RUBY. That I spoke to you about for your consideration.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, I’m not worried, I’m not concerned about anybody trying to do away with me. This is the least of my worries. Nobody has threatened me about this thing. Nobody has coerced me in any way.

Mr. RUBY. I want harmony, that’s what I want. I want harmony with you and the district attorney’s office.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, we can’t harmonize over your situation, I’m sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the point we got to was the question of getting the substantive information out before going on with the test. Did you tell anyone that you intended to shoot Oswald?

Mr. HERNDON. You mean—before?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I don’t know if we’re going to get an answer to it or not.

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, now the question that is being directed to you at this time—well, go right ahead.

Mr. RUBY. Yes: Sunday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you tell?

Mr. RUBY. George Senator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you at the time you discussed it with him?

Mr. RUBY. In my apartment.

Mr. SPECTER. And state in as precise words as you can remember, just what you said to him and he said to you at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t say anything—the funny part—he was reading the paper and I doubt if he even recalled me saying it. I have to elaborate on it, but I was so carried away emotionally that I said—I don’t know how I said it—I didn’t say it in any vulgar manner—I said, “If something happened to this person, that then Mrs. Kennedy won’t have to come back for the trial.” That’s all I said. Now, would you mind asking me on that particular point? That happened Sunday morning. That’s the only time any thought ever came to my mind, because that morning I read some articles in the newspaper that she would have to come back to trial.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever say to anybody, “I am going to shoot Oswald,” or anything to the effect that, “I am going to shoot or kill him”?

Mr. RUBY. No; I just made the statement—that’s the only thing I said.

Mr. SPECTER. That statement you made to George Senator, that’s the only thing, that’s the closest you came to saying it?

Mr. RUBY. That Sunday morning before I left my apartment.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell Randolph Paul you were going to shoot him?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know a Randolph Paul.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Breck Wall?

Mr. RUBY. I know I never said that to Breck Wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps the name was Ralph Paul. Did you ever say it to Ralph Paul?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, let’s prepare the question this way, if we may, Mr. Herndon: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is that formulation acceptable for purposes of the test, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure I get it correct.

Mr. SPECTER. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. In the flippant way I said it, I doubt if he’d even—you know—the poor guy may not even have remembered it. We never discussed it after that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the exact time you recollect you said that to him?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—it was about 10:15 Sunday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately?

Mr. RUBY. Well, you know—10 minutes either way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Fowler, we will phrase the question in that way, but that phraseology of the question carries certain implications which you understand.

Mr. RUBY. May I repeat that question once more to make sure it’s accurate?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander can come back in.

(Mr. Alexander at this time entered the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. We have now formulated the question, Mr. Alexander, and Mr. Herndon will now read it, together with the other questions he intends to ask in this series.

Mr. HERNDON. The question is, “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. That will be one of the questions on the next series.

Mr. Specter, do you want that to be in lieu of this one or in addition to this question?

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s ask it in lieu of that question. Strike the other question, the original question.

Mr. HERNDON. Strike the original question that commences, “Did you tell anyone you were thinking about”?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that’s the one we’ve been talking about.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Is this still series 3?

Mr. HERNDON. We’re still on series 3. Mr. Alexander. As a matter of fact, if it’s all right with you gentleman, I’d like to start right over again on series 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have that one area resolved.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you as we said originally—before—back in the testimony. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”

Then, the other relative or pertinent question here will be, “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

And, in addition to those questions, I will ask on this series the following questions——

Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you add—in—let’s get the time element in there, too, because that was Sunday morning.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I don’t want to make these questions too long.

Mr. RUBY. I know, but I want this because somebody might think that I mentioned it 2 days prior to that.

Mr. SPECTER. We can add if you want to. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. OK.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’re going to insert after “George Senator”—“on Sunday morning.” Here again, the Sunday morning being that time after you woke up and prior to noon.

Mr. RUBY. Remember, it was the flippant way I said it that I doubt if the poor soul remembered it.

Mr. HERNDON. The other questions in this series will be as follows, Mr. Ruby. Here again are some of the irrelevant questions. “Is your last name Ruby? Do you live in Dallas?” I’m going to ask you “Are you married?” Just for the record, I understand you’re single, so you could answer that “No.” “Were you in the military service?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question: “While in service,” and I mean the military service, “did you receive any disciplinary action?” Do you understand that question?

Mr. RUBY. In other words, “While you were in the military, were you hurt?”

Mr. HERNDON. No; Mr. Ruby, disciplinary action. Were you court-martialed, captains’ mast, or any disciplinary action?

Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.

Mr. HERNDON. There’s one other relevant question I want to ask on this series and I put it as simply as I can. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. One other question: “Have you ever served time in jail?” Now, what I mean by that question, Mr. Ruby, is not this present custody but any other time. “Did you ever actually serve time in jail?”

Mr. RUBY. I have served 30 days—I mean—that would answer it.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, you can answer that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. If that comes to mind, you could say, “Yes.”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me make sure we’ve gone over these questions. Do you feel all right, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we will proceed.

Mr. RUBY. That 30 days embarrasses me, because it was with reference to selling some song sheets back in the old depression days, and it wasn’t for anything criminal. It was something that I didn’t realize at the time there were copyrights on those songs. So, I don’t want to become a felon just because—outside of what I am now.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, these questions, I don’t mean to embarrass you, Mr. Ruby. I want to ask these questions because they’re going to help me later on, and I want to get some of these other questions on your background. Was that in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. When you explained about the song sheets?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I made a pretty good living at that time.

Mr. HERNDON. You still recall that and it embarrasses you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I will be ready to start series 3 in a moment.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, if Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill will leave the room, we will proceed with series 3.

May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now absent.

(Reporter’s note: 3:58 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Of course, we have been moving around and talking, Mr. Ruby, I’m going to make a few minor adjustments here. Are you comfortable, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m going to put this up a little higher on your chest, and I want you to lean back and relax. Do you want to put your feet flat on the floor during the test, if you will.

All right. I again will tell you when we actually start the test. I’m going to put a little pressure on the arm, and once again, on these questions, if you will answer them simply “Yes” or “No” truthfully. Will you look straight ahead, please, sir.

(Reporter’s note: 3:59 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.

“Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you live in Dallas?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are you married?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the military service?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “While in service did you receive any disciplinary action?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever served time in jail?”

Mr. RUBY (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Sit still for a moment and we will release the pressure on your arm.

Do you feel a little better when I release that pressure?

Mr. RUBY. When you elaborate on “serving time”, 30 days isn’t serving time.

Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask you to explain that, and you followed instructions explicitly there.

Then, actually in explanation to that, this 30 days to you were insignificant?

Mr. RUBY. Well, yes, but I explained that.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s all right. I have to ask these questions.

Mr. RUBY. To serve time is when you refer to a man being in the penitentiary.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, there are a few questions I want to ask him with regard to that series.

Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.

Mr. HERNDON. Just two points I want to clarify for my own use here.

Mr. Ruby, I asked you. “Are you married?” and you replied “No.” Could you tell me if anything went on in your mind at the time you responded “No”?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was thinking of the young girl, that had I been married I wouldn’t have been in this trouble. I guess that’s what flashed back in my mind.

Mr. HERNDON. Is this a former sweetheart?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. What else?

Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to get your explanation at that particular point?

Mr. RUBY. You noticed something there?

Mr. HERNDON. Did you feel anything?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew I wasn’t—something was working on me when you asked me that. I would probably have been living in another part of the city, and I wouldn’t have been involved in this.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you recall the girl’s name?

Mr. RUBY. Yes—Alice Nichols.

Mr. HERNDON. And how long ago was this that you were acquainted with her?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, for many years, and I guess we severed relations in 1959—“relations”—I meant our company.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s the last time you were dating?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we were engaged and so on.

Mr. HERNDON. You never actually married this young lady?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir. That’s why you see me in a moment of despair—like I am.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever consider marrying her?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, that clarifies that question for me. One other area I’d like you to speak frankly and freely on, and here again it gets back to this military service. I asked you, “While in the military service, did you ever receive any disciplinary action?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever get in any trouble at all while you were in the service that came to your mind during that question?

Mr. RUBY. When you say “trouble”?

Mr. HERNDON. Disciplinary action for trouble?

Mr. RUBY. No; I have never been called down for anything. I may have had a brawl with another soldier.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you while you were in the service ever have a fight?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but when you speak of “disciplinary” is when you go before a court-martial or the colonel calls you in or something happens.

Mr. HERNDON. Were you called in before the commanding officer?

Mr. RUBY. Sure; but it’s not important enough to answer. Evidently, you’re getting a pretty good reading?

Mr. HERNDON. I’m having no technical difficulty with regard to giving the test.

Mr. RUBY. I wish you would prove to my chief here, over there, how I stand with you (referring to Mr. Holman).

Mr. HERNDON. I want to study these very carefully, of course, but you have been very cooperative, as far as running the actual examination. That will complete series 3.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, I will call the gentlemen in.

Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned.

Mr. HERNDON. We will go on to another series now. I am going to run a little different type of examination, Mr. Ruby, if you still feel like you want to continue. Do you want to take a break?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, I want to go on completely.

Mr. HERNDON. You are not tired?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. This next one will be relatively short, and it won’t take too long.

I’m going to ask you these questions somewhat in sequence and in consecutive order. There are five of them. They can be answered simply by “yes” or “no.”

“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. And last, I’ll ask you, “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. In addition to those questions I’ve just asked, I’m going to ask, again to establish identity, “Is your first name Jack?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I will ask you of those questions that I have just related to you, those pertinent five questions in consecutive order, with considerable spacing and time between—I believe you understand what I mean by Friday night?

Mr. RUBY. Definitely—the period of meditation.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s right—in the evening after 6 o’clock, and Saturday morning we consider as being that time from when you wake up until you have lunch, and I think you understand these questions.

Mr. RUBY. Also, is there any way you can ask me if my family had known of my doing anything like that?

Mr. HERNDON. We may possibly get into that area or perhaps take that up with Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, actually, Mr. Ruby, we have a great many questions to ask you and there are certain limitations on the test.

Mr. HERNDON. I am going to proceed on this particular series now.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are leaving the room, and may the record show both have now departed.

(Reporter’s note: 4.08 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Did you want to tell me something before, Mr. Ruby, before I start?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Again, I will tell you when the test begins.

Will you let the record show that I have these designated as series 3a.

All right, do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Sit perfectly still and try to concentrate and look straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.”

I now put some pressure on that arm cuff.

The test will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 4:10 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Is your first name Jack?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. “No”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. “No”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday night?”

Mr. Ruby. “No”.