Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn’t get up that early, then would it have been because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o’clock that night. I think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night or do you?

Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up on Sunday morning before 8 o’clock.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o’clock; so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn’t fall asleep, which is rare, but it has happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I slept well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s see. I think we were at the point of Monday morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said you slept at Jim Martin’s house.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think from there I went——

Mr. HUBERT. In your car?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I went and had coffee. I don’t remember if it was around 9 or something like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn’t say anything, but they knew, you know. The people who knew me knew.

Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in particular.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to do your normal business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t in any condition for business. I didn’t feel that good.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing anybody that day at all.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain—who I saw I don’t remember but I am certain that I seen people; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don’t know whether you saw Howard the night before.

Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don’t know, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature of the conversation was?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack Ruby case.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he call for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t call for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe it was anything particular that we talked about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case.

I don’t remember the particular conversation at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn’t call upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting him? To find out the status of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Of me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby’s defense, to see if you could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what was going on?

Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on.

Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose of the visit, that was the purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see him. When you say the purpose in mind—I was so mixed up myself I didn’t know what was going on.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you.

Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin later on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr. Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed.

Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are continuing under the same circumstances that we began.

I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on Monday you went to see Tom Howard.

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don’t remember where. Monday there was so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I saw them that day. I can’t quote every instance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up—let’s see, the club was closed Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course, going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was just a jammed-up, mixed-up day.

I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don’t remember where I saw him, if I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on there and my mind was in a muddle even with that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing particular. I mean all my questionings—I mean all my questionings—I had that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen was, and the FBI man.

But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to see whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know this about him and that about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that?

Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can’t even remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the incident at that time. I don’t remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone about being a witness for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn’t even enter my head. I wasn’t thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can’t specify just how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the case. See, I don’t remember just how long it was from there until they got this Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it?

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t the slightest idea. I couldn’t imagine why. I’ll tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any indication of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then——

Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn’t picture this man doing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t think. I couldn’t picture him being of this nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy and the children, I don’t know how many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you——

Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying with at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t want to be quoted, but I think I was staying with Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place?

Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can’t think of the name of the building, but the FBI people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret Service.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you would like to see it. I’ve still got that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at that point?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore——

Mr. SENATOR. Return to work?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you.

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I was just existing here and there, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company?

Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no say. In other words, I had no money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers?

Mr. SENATOR. The backers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest St. Charles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that?

Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know, which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a going business.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped a certain amount.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire this business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up?

Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for $3,000, if I can remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?

Mr. SENATOR. The cards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has got this sort of garage-like thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about?

Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and St. Charles have another business which they operated while they——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a small little business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder’s main business?

Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles’ main business?

Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?

Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any——

Mr. SENATOR. There wasn’t that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those?

Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying the postcards too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be——

Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a no-care attitude any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and novelty company?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately 10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was with Lauve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say approximately around 5 weeks, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first week, if I remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. January.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the last week in February.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?

Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the first bond hearing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but it was in December sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other agents and they were departing, they were going home.

So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he mentioned, call Mr. Clements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was representing Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?

Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?

Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the bond hearing was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there, besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long because they let you know that you have got to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?

Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think how he felt.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were really serious about making bond?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the case?

Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a part of the case; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to talk with Howard at all?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know, but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing, practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to describe him. He had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you know, and then all the things materialized after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. How many times?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. A guess?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there was some change?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words; you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about anything like that; anything but that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change——

Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the way he carried his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?

Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had discussed them previously to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation. The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get this on the record. This is the problem.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking through a glass about like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door?

Mr. SENATOR. And like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window?

Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort?

Mr. SENATOR. No door; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?

Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?

Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as well say it was part of the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell. I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course, I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words, there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand; nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or whatever it was, wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any substantial changes in him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe 5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself, which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack where he wasn’t coherent?

Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another word and make it more simplified for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared that he did not understand what you were saying to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not make any sense to you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he would not be able to respond at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that, because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement of where he is in, of what he is in——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here, and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you recognize him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are. Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to me. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit 5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?

Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night, amateur hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but recognize him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can see there. The majority are all customers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.

Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs.

Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?

Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all. I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of seeing. This you can’t see hardly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.

Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with Jack Ruby the last time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know. This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don’t know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?

Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think so but I just can’t see their face well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short while, this particular one here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.

Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to——

Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head because it is sort of baldish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you don’t recognize any of them?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you look at the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right side of the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I don’t know what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of the girls in that picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these memoranda.

Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those that are shown in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, everything else like he kept his money, all over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is the way he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my knowledge that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?

Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is just no particular type piece of paper with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in his pocket, I assume that is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you recognize that notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?

Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall having seen this particular notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover, but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know that he had a notebook of some sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on there?

Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize any of them.

Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?

Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I may not recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady. There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen her working.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have heard that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on there you can’t read.

Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.

Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound out the names, don’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.