Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the modern term “a slum neighborhood,” would you characterize it like that?

Mrs. GRANT. Not really a slum because those who had more money next door lived better, but there were worse neighborhoods. I don’t know how much worse. I admit to you often we talked about it. I don’t say the middle class people lived there. It was below the middle class, but yet it wasn’t the poorest class.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry, Mrs. Grant?

Mrs. GRANT. I married March 30, 1930, to Hyman Magid in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think there was a child born of this marriage?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; that’s Ronnie Magid.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that child is what age?

Mrs. GRANT. He will be 33 next month.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were divorced from Mr. Magid?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What year?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it was 1934 in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Mr. Magid’s, your husband’s, occupation?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, you really want to know—that’s a catchy question. He went into business with his father and his father owned a meat market, but that was later on. He really took up—he was a college graduate and he did electrical work, but he never worked at it. He didn’t adapt himself to it for some reason or other.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do for a living, then?

Mrs. GRANT. As far as I know he was a butcher.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean at that time.

Mrs. GRANT. He went to school when I married him and after that he worked with his father.

Mr. HUBERT. In a butcher shop?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, it was during the depression.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during the time of your marriage?

Mrs. GRANT. I lived with my mother-in-law on Kolin Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. In Chicago?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after your divorce, I think you went to the west coast, is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. Jack went there first.

Mr. HUBERT. What year was that?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1934 in January, I mean, it seems to me it was that year.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been divorced?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s when he went there. I didn’t go there until later.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack went first?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. And he must have been a man about 21 or 22 at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. It could be.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in 1934?

Mrs. GRANT. Don’t hold me to 1934 or 1935. I’m so confused. I know it was either one of the years, and he went there right after the first of the year, and I followed 6 months later.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he went there?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he went to work. There was no work in Chicago and there was boys out there that said there was jobs—that there was a lot of jobs available in San Francisco.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with him when you went out?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—yes, I did; we occupied an apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. It was you and Jack and your son?

Mrs. GRANT. My son—I put him in a private school and Jack helped me pay for him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s occupation on the west coast?

Mrs. GRANT. He got a newspaper crew—sometimes he worked for the Call Bulletin, which is a famous Hearst paper, the Examiner, and sometimes he gave us the crew and he worked for the—there was a news—it was called the San Francisco News and sometimes we worked for the Chronicle. You see, there is a system——

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you say you worked for them, in what capacity?

Mrs. GRANT. We solicited for subscriptions door to door. It was during the height of the depression.

Mr. HUBERT. This was sort of a door-to-door operation that you and he had, was it?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was a better salesman. He was always guiding me, you know, let me put it this way—there was good money in it considering the times, because they were paying 90 cents an order and we would go out and get 8 or 10 or 15 orders a day, which you couldn’t get in any other job, and our obligations were great. My son’s expenses were $65 a month and my brother helped support half of the fellows that didn’t work—who wouldn’t do this.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say your “brother” you mean Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. I mean Jack—Jack was the only one out there.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave California?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I married Frank Grant in San Francisco in 1936, and I think we stayed around another year or a year and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. But did you still reside with Jack then after you married?

Mrs. GRANT. For a while he did—yes, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. He lived with you?

Mrs. GRANT. We had a four-room apartment and my son was home then with us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any other occupations during the time you were on the west coast other than that which you have described?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember out there anything but for the newspapers, you know, and first he came to Los Angeles and he nearly starved to death. He became a singing waiter and someone told him—well, he said he was on his way to San Francisco but I think he didn’t have enough money or gas to get there—to San Francisco.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you subsequently divorced from Frank Grant?

Mrs. GRANT. Now—I’m divorced many years.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; that’s what I wanted to get. When were you divorced?

Mrs. GRANT. I think I filed in 1941.

Mr. HUBERT. But you left the west coast about what—1937?

Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. I went down to Los Angeles with Frank Grant and I lived there. I may have went home on a trip to Chicago, which I did very often.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the west coast permanently?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it was after the war broke out.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Jack leave the west coast?

Mrs. GRANT. He already left.

Mr. HUBERT. About what year, do you remember?

Mrs. GRANT. He may have left before 1940, but you see, he came back so many times and he and a fellow by the name of Harry Epstein started to sell premium items—a cedar chest with candy, if I remember, and they developed a company—I think it was called the Spartan Co.—the Spartan Novelty Co.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Jack and this fellow Epstein?

Mrs. GRANT. Harry Epstein—that’s as well as I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of these other friends?

Mrs. GRANT. Who do you want me to remember?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—you see—you must tell me.

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, you asked me—listen, I know all the fellows we knew in Chicago and went to school with and grew up with.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you could name some of them that you remember.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, you see, there is a difference of friends and acquaintances. There are people, you knew, that we just knew they existed.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think what we want to know is the friends, of course, a lot of people you know, but those you would classify as being friends.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was an admirer of Barney Ross that was a good friend all through the years and Barney fought on the west coast. They were very close. Let’s see—while we were on the west coast we were very friendly with Izzy Kaplan, with Frankie Goldstein—you see, these people all worked in the newspaper—they were all working fellows at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they from Chicago originally?

Mrs. GRANT. No; we met them out on the west coast soliciting for newspapers. In Chicago I could name hundreds of fellows—I don’t know—Al Kamin, do you know him—is he down on the list? He owned the Marlene Sales Co. at one time and I think that at one time—now, let me tell you the story about him. He and Jack were selling premiums and they went and made a plaque. They invested every dime they could get from my family, which was $1,500—my sister Marion and Earl—and this plaque, now, I don’t know if it was in that year or when it was done, but it was President Roosevelt’s head and they figured for an inducement to give away, that was a giveaway item. It was worth about $1 retail, whoever wanted it, but they were selling merchandise and Al Kamin had a place at 5 North Wabash or 5 South Wabash in Chicago. I don’t know—I was not there at the time, but I do know this plaque thing existed and I know another thing that they went into. You know, there were eight children and anyone who had a buck in the family, they went into a deal where they made something about this size [indicating], and it told about Pearl Harbor. I don’t know if you remember seeing that plaque. They sold quite a bit of them, but to them it was a giveaway. They sold quite a bit of merchandise—to induce these purchasers, they would give them 10 or 15 of them. It was like a certificate that the people shouldn’t forget Pearl Harbor. Now, that could have been—he wasn’t in the war yet, where Earl and Sammy was already in. He went in, I think, the last one. I may be wrong. I have forgotten—I’ll be honest about it, but they were merchandising and this man and he were in business.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then did you move from the west coast back to Chicago prior to Pearl Harbor; you did, did you not?

Mrs. GRANT. I was on the west coast—he was gone. He was in Chicago and I think he was with Harry Epstein, I’m sure, in 1940 and in 1941 when the war broke out. Now, he has been back to California. Other members of the family came to visit my son and myself in 1940 and 1941, but he was already, I think, established with Harry Epstein. Harry would know something more about this than I do—I don’t remember, but I know they were selling merchandise.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any acquaintenance or friends that Jack had who had been convicted of crimes?

Mrs. GRANT. Name them—I’ll admit to it if I know—yes—let me say this, we knew undesirable characters that grew up in our neighborhood.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember some of their names?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state them, please?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t want it to be in the public library. These fellows are such nice fellows today, I heard. You know, if these things get out, they think we are degrading them. We were raised with a lot of people that become undesirables. They were people that lived in our neighborhood. Some went to school with us. I know of a fellow getting killed—he said his name was English—he was a bad character as far as we knew. He was 16 years old and I think they killed him on a swing somewhere in the area. We knew the family where they had three boys and I understand—I’m going to tell you about this family, because I told the Secret Service, Elmer Moore. His name was Lenny Patrick. Let me explain—we knew he existed. We never associated with him in our home or in our business or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I wanted to ask you. You see, I have asked you if these people were your friends or not.

Mrs. GRANT. No; but they are people we know. We know their family—we see them, “How’s your mother, how’s your sister?”

Mr. HUBERT. But there was no close relationship between Jack and people with criminal records, is that right? Is that a fair statement?

Mrs. GRANT. If he knew any—maybe—I don’t know whoever went to jail—all of them.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m asking you what you know about it. Let me put it this way: Do you know of any people who were friendly with Jack, not merely knew him, but who were friendly with Jack, who you knew and he knew had a criminal record?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I wouldn’t say he was unfriendly with them.

Mr. HUBERT. I didn’t ask you that—I’m asking you—was he friendly with any of them?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he wasn’t associated socially or in business, yet you saw them—they were around. If you went to a nightclub or if you went to a bazaar.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean did they come to the home?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come and visit you and such as that?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. May I inject something in there—Jack didn’t visit in their home and they didn’t visit in yours and you didn’t have anything to do with them; is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. Even their sisters or brothers who were nice, we didn’t have anything to do with them, yet we knew they turned out to be some pretty rough characters and I’m not going to deny that—Sam Yeres and Dave Yeres—let me say this, I knew of more than he knew.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any contacts that he may have retained with any of these people after he left the Chicago area?

Mrs. GRANT. We saw them—and we encountered them—we talked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—nobody I know. I know one did—wait a minute—Sam Yeres did.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he come to Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—many years ago, but he is since dead and his brother is in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the last 8 or 9 or 10 years.

Mrs. GRANT. He may have died 10 years ago, for all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any people of the nature or character which you have described whom Jack may have known in the Chicago district whom he contacted or who contacted him in the past 10 years—to your knowledge—if you don’t know, you don’t know.

Mrs. GRANT. If they have, I didn’t know they were here, but I doubt if he would be friendly with them.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is that you really don’t know?

Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you want to ask anything about this segment?

Mr. BURLESON. Yes, please.

Mrs. Grant, your father only had one brother, is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. He had a lot of brothers—they died in the old country. The only brother that came here as far as I knew was that one.

Mr. BURLESON. Was the one you told us about?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, the juvenile court contacts that you and your brothers and sisters had were all a result of a broken home and not as a result of any type of misbehavior?

Mrs. GRANT. There has never been any criminal action in my family as much as I know.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to Jack’s recent last 10 years, you know of no contacts he has had either in person or by telephone——

Mrs. GRANT. I want to correct that.

Mr. BURLESON. With any person of an undesirable or criminal element?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, the way you look at it—now, the AGVA is a highly recognized organization in the world—it is the Actor’s Guild and Jack had a lot of trouble here with certain other nightclub owners. We had known that a certain individual has upped himself up from racketeering to this particular organization.

Mr. BURLESON. Who is that individual, do you know that individual’s name?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, as I know him, he used to be a cocktail lounge owner and he is in that slip. His name is Jack Yanover. We know his parents—I’ve known the man 40 years. He’s a man 65 years old.

Mr. BURLESON. He had some type of criminal element?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you—to get into these union deals and everything, Jack—by the way you know Jack was a union organizer and became an officer, but the man he was connected with was a highly reputable lawyer. That’s why they killed him—Leon Cook. Jack himself never had any connections with gangsters for money, for business, for sociability. On the other hand, when we saw them we acknowledged them. When my father died——

Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me bring you up to the last 10 years—do you know of any telephone contacts Jack has had?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. With whom?

Mrs. GRANT. Here—I’m going to tell you—in the last year he has had so much aggravation in the club, that he called this Lenny Patrick. That was the last resort. He figured he might know somebody—this guy is not a holy man by far.

Mr. BURLESON. Lenny Patrick is not a holy man?

Mrs. GRANT. No: he’s not by far. He’s a gambler.

Mr. BURLESON. Jack called him for what purpose?

Mrs. GRANT. He called him for the purpose to see if he could fix him up with the union, so he could have amateur night the same as the other two fellows here.

Mr. BURLESON. It’s something to do with unions?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me ask you this—what about this friend of Jack’s—this Willie, do you know this man; what do you know about him?

Mrs. GRANT. Willie—he is considered——

Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?

Mrs. GRANT. [Spelling] M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that’s Louis McWillie, is that who you mean?

Mrs. GRANT. I met him 8 or 9 years ago in the restaurant with Jack, and Jack told me that night or the next night that, “He’s a gambler,” in fact, I think he was the main guy at the high class club here, Cipango’s, he ran games over there at that club and it is highly recognized, and the town sort of overlooks him and they admire him—truthfully, if you met this man, you would think he is a doctor or a lawyer.

Mr. BURLESON. Jack has had some contact with him?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; not in business. He was a nice fellow. I don’t know how well Jack knew him—I do know this man was getting a divorce. He was married to a much older lady and he went to Jack—he wanted Jack to talk to this lady to be sure she files a divorce, something to that effect, because I went with him to her home. He wasn’t there.

Mr. BURLESON. Jack also had contact by going on vacations with him, for instance?

Mrs. GRANT. Well; wait a minute. Jack was broke, as you know. That’s another thing, and he was so disgusted and so blue and it seemed it was the year my father was very ill, I think it was 1958, and that McWillie sent him a ticket to come to Havana, Cuba, and my sister was there—not the same time, but the same year, but there was no commotion with Havana, Cuba, then, and McWillie—the airlines has proved that this ticket was bought by this McWillie—that’s as much as I know.

Mr. BURLESON. He went down there and was it for some type of business that they had talked about?

Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you—I understand—now, this was told to me recently and I don’t even know if it’s so.

Mr. BURLESON. It wasn’t told to you by Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t even know who told me—it’s something about jeeps and I don’t know if I’m dreaming it or thinking it. McWillie was a gambler and they are running a game in the big casinos where all the bigwigs out of Miami come over for a couple of nights, and that was as much as I knew about it because I have never been to Florida or to that part of Florida.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, as far as you know, Jack and McWillie never had any business relationship, McWillie was just helping Jack out on a vacation?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack was depressed and sick mentally then and we didn’t realize it.

Mr. BURLESON. Is that about the time he locked himself up?

Mrs. GRANT. No; he locked himself up before that.

Mr. BURLESON. Do you think of any other person or any other incident or anything else that you know concerning Jack and having any connection in the last 10 years with any one of the so-called criminal element?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know he went to New York to talk to a guy by the name of Glazer, but he is considered the wealthiest booking agent, and from what I heard years ago, this guy probably could have been in rackets—I don’t know, but he is with the AGVA. I can’t explain this—some of these boys have worked themselves up to——

Mr. BURLESON. So that the only contacts that you do know about were through AGVA, or what you have already told us?

Mrs. GRANT. There was nothing—I know when Lenny—he said something about “Maybe he knows somebody in the AGVA.”

Mr. BURLESON. Who could help them in the trouble he was having?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. He also called—there was a fellow in Chicago by the name of—I have noticed all their names.

Mr. BURLESON. But this is all you can think about?

Mrs. GRANT. But if they have got names, I will answer it.

Mr. BURLESON. All right, we will get to that.

Mrs. GRANT. I am not trying to get out of it.

Mr. BURLESON. This is all you can think of now?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something before you even—and since this is going in this record—I knew more racketeers than he did. My girl friends lived in classy buildings and there were fellows that worked, they were gambling men. The ran districts in Chicago and when I was 16 or 18, this was the prohibition. We hear all of this stuff and we were intrigued by it, but we didn’t know who these people were, but I knew they existed, and truthfully, all in 1 year—in the early forties they were, as you say, bumped off, but he didn’t know them, and please believe me I am very truthful and very honest.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go off the record now and recess until this evening.

(Discussion between counsel off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. We will recess until 7:30 this evening.

(Whereupon, the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you returned to Chicago to live some time prior to the war, is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. Let’s see—every year I went home—I may have stayed a month, 3 months or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on a permanent basis.

Mrs. GRANT. I was never there permanent after I married Frank Grant. I mean, if I was there—the longest time I was there is the year my father was sick before he died.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me put it this way—I am going to ask you if you know some names of people and if you don’t know them, all right, but if you do know them, tell us what you know about them. For instance, Frank Howard and Jack Howard—do you know those people?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I don’t, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And a man by the name of Erwin Berke [spelling] B-e-r-k-e. Do you know him?

Mrs. GRANT. Never—just doesn’t ring a bell, I never have heard the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Jaffe [spelling] J-a-f-f-e?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Chavin [spelling] C-h-a-v-i-n?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you knew his wife, Charlotte Chavin, who is the daughter of Sam Jaffe, did you ever see her?

Mrs. GRANT. Where are they from; do you have an idea?

Mr. HUBERT. They were from Chicago, ma’am, and they subsequently moved to Muncie, Ind.

Mrs. GRANT. I never heard of them—I never heard of them.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard of them?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever know of any connection that Jack might have had with those people?

Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t a close connection. We knew some Jaffes—I mean, as kids—they were in the undertaking business, but I haven’t heard of them in years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a daughter of Sam Jaffe whose name was Charlotte and she married Sam Chavin?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Then there was another daughter who married Erwin Berke.

Mrs. GRANT. What was her first name? Can I ask you a question—how far back does the names go?

Mr. HUBERT. This would have been around the period of the war—1942 to 1946.

Mrs. GRANT. I wasn’t around Chicago that much in those years—you see—I was here and on the west coast.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, these names don’t ring a bell?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t place them at all unless they are mispronounced or misspelled, but Jaffes—I did know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any Jaffes who moved from Chicago to Muncie, Ind.?

Mrs. GRANT. No; no.

Mr. HUBERT. The Jaffes you did know were in an earlier period; is that right?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And as far as you know, they didn’t move to Muncie, Ind.?

Mrs. GRANT. In the last 25 years—I can’t place the name close to Jack or me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Paul Labriola [spelling] L-a-b-r-i-o-l-a?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Hershey Colvin?

Mrs. GRANT. I never heard those names.

Mr. HUBERT. Jimmy Weinberg?

Mrs. GRANT. We are—my mother had a niece that was married to a Weinberg, but there is not one name like that in the family—no Jimmies.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did, of course, move ultimately to Dallas, which has been your home, I take it, for some period?

Mrs. GRANT. On and off for over 20 years—22 years.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first come to Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1942 or 1943, I was here for a little while.

Mr. HUBERT. For how long?

Mrs. GRANT. For a few months at least it seems.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming here to Dallas; do you remember?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I came to look—Al Kamin owned the Marlene Sales and he had costume jewelry and he wanted me to sell it, you know, in little stores and I took a sample and I didn’t sell it. I had several samples and I went to work selling magazines for a company, it seems, out of Los Angeles—I don’t know what year it was.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in Dallas?

Mr. GRANT. Oh, yes; but I mean this particular agency handles all magazines.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Dallas during that period?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems a couple of months—I don’t know—then, I went home. You see, I think it was during the summer—I left my son there in the summer—I just can’t remember—honest to God.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you in some sort of an export-import business?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; but that was later—I think it was in 1944, 1945, 1946, and 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas on a rather permanent basis during those years?

Mrs. GRANT. After that—yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I gather from your testimony you would fix a time of your permanent domicile or residence in Dallas as about 1944?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I stayed more here—then. I was here—I would think 3 or 4 years. Even if I went to Chicago I didn’t stay long.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but your home in the normal sense of the word would have been Dallas after 1944?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say from that time on I was just here until 1948, constantly, well, I mean outside of every year—leaving for a few weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now—what was the export-import business?

Mrs. GRANT. We really didn’t do any exporting. That was the name of the Berger-Grant Sales Co. Milton Berger was with me—he has since died. We bought and sold caustic soda, soda ash, and my brother Jack made a connection for me to sell irons—regular household irons and lamps and merchandise, but he knew a factory in Chicago and they sent me merchandise and Milton went on the road and through seven or eight States in the South and I handled the business end of it—that was caustic soda, soda ash, and we had a few accounts—the best account I remember is the Rivera people—the Rivera family. They bought soda ash and caustic soda from us.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jerry Rivera, his home is in Piedras Negras—they are still there.

Mr. HUBERT. In what State—in what country?

Mrs. GRANT. Isn’t that right over the border in Mexico?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—Piedras Negras—is that it?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s in Mexico?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he lived in San Antonio a great deal and in Houston he had an office.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he alive?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last contact with him?

Mrs. GRANT. I think I saw him about 4 years ago—maybe 5.

Mr. HUBERT. And what connection, do you recall?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he came through—he was at one of the motels and he called my brother and I went out and had dinner with him.

Mr. HUBERT. He called Jack, you mean?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—now, there are several brothers in the family, and I even met his parents the previous year.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any connection with that Rivera family or any member of it in the last 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know I met his mother and father. They came to Chicago in one of the summers—like in the middle fifties when I was up there. They had called our home in Chicago and his parents were staying at the Palmer House.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection whatsoever between your brother, Jack Ruby, and any member of the Rivera family in the last 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he had any business with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any connection otherwise?

Mrs. GRANT. He only knew them through me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection in any way—business, social, or otherwise, in the last 5 years?

Mrs. GRANT. Nothing—nothing. I am here now exactly a little over 4 years and I have not left this city for 4 years, outside of going to Hot Springs once for 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Paul Roland Jones?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us what you know about him?

Mrs. GRANT. I was going with a fellow by the name of Dr. Weldon Duncan. This fellow was here in town, at least he was 2 weeks ago—now—he is a chiropractor and he knew this Roland Jones and Roland told me—that’s it. He told me he was in the export business, not in the export business exactly, wait a minute—brokerage business—of eggs.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you meet Paul Roland Jones first?

Mrs. GRANT. When I knew him well was before you see, we didn’t have enough money to open the club. Jack was still in the service and Jack says he will sell his interest in the Earl Products—he was in business with the other brothers, do you have it there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. GRANT. OK—well, Jack says when he gets out of this he will send me some money and that could have been the fall or summer of 1947. That seems to be it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me how you got to meet him?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Dr. Duncan brought him over.

Mr. HUBERT. As a friend or in what way?

Mrs. GRANT. They came to the club—I mean—just came to that club.

Mr. HUBERT. Which club was that?

Mrs. GRANT. It was called the Singapore Supper Club at 1717 South Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. You were running that club?

Mrs. GRANT. No; the club was not open—we didn’t have chairs or tables.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, they came to this place then that was called the Singapore Club that was not yet open?

Mrs. GRANT. And I used the office of the club for my other merchandise business. In fact, the club was full with lamps and all other kinds of things.

Mr. HUBERT. And this doctor introduced you to Roland Paul Jones?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any further connections with Roland Paul Jones?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please?

Mrs. GRANT. We were buying metals, at least we were trying to buy metals and materials to sell to—in fact, gas companies—one is—I have the files, believe me, and I think it’s at Jonesboro—is it in Arkansas or Oklahoma? Well, we got the specifications and Paul Roland Jones brought me a piece of metal, maybe 6 inches long—it’s a certain type of pipe, rather, he brought me, and this man didn’t want it, so I sent it on to Chicago to my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. Which brother?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I sent it to my older brother, Hyman, and he says he knew somebody that might be able to use the amount of footage we had at this place, and we were going to make what you call a finder’s fee or broker’s fee, but little did we know of Paul Roland Jones’ connection, because I’m going to tell you. This man told me several things—“I’m not fit to be in the night club business, I’m not the caliber of a person.”

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that—Jones told you that?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and he seemed to be a very nice fellow and he used my phone for a long distance call to Ardmore, Okla., and I know he paid me $2 or $3 in change when he did it, and I didn’t know a thing about this.

Mr. HUBERT. About what, ma’am?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I pick up the headlines and they got Paul Roland Jones in jail somewhere—in Fort Worth. I no sooner picked this up—this paper, the paper of this city, my brother is calling me from Chicago that the FBI or some organization, one of your organizations went to the Congress Hotel where Jack was staying and they are questioning him about whether—about what he knew about Paul Roland Jones. I don’t think Jack ever heard me mention the name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Paul Roland Jones when this occurred?

Mrs. GRANT. Not too many months—if it was 6 months or 8 months—it was the longest.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you done any business with him?

Mrs Grant. No—never.

Mr. HUBERT. It was simply through meeting at the club?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, this doctor brought him in one afternoon. He knew him because he went to him for treatment.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s the first meeting, but thereafter, what was the basis of the meeting?

Mrs. GRANT. Nothing. I mean, he came in, and I went to dinner with him and the doctor once, and we went for a ride, but I’ll tell you, the doctor and I didn’t know anything about his background.

Mr. HUBERT. He was ultimately charged, was he not, with the possession of narcotics?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; in fact, we read the story that night. We were shocked. We knew he took trips, we knew he was married to a dancer in New York, but this all came out—wait a minute, his wife came from New York that summer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we’ll get into that later. Did Jack know Paul Roland Jones at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. If he did—no; I doubt if he ever even heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack had not come down here yet?

Mrs. GRANT. If he was, he didn’t stay long.

Mr. HUBERT. But to your recollection he didn’t know Jones at all?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever seen him—well, wait a minute, he may have seen the man or heard about him.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but at the time of this episode that you are telling us about?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he ever saw him as far as I know, but I want to tell you that Roland Jones went to Chicago during the period of those 6 months and he did meet my brother Hyman. I don’t know what conversation my brother had—my brother thought he was a nice guy—we didn’t know anything about his background.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he went to jail for something about narcotics from Turkey or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other charges later against him? Do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. Do you want to know something—I went into a hotel here, and let me think, either the Whitmore or the Southland since he has been out, or when he got out, and this friend of mine said, “Guess who got out of jail?” He said “Paul Roland Jones,” and I said, “That’s nice.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mrs. GRANT. This must be 7 years or 8 years—it seems like a long time ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he was here 2 years ago, I think. He came through and he stopped by the Vegas Club one night. Oh, he says, he got in a cab and he was coming through—he probably was here other times but he didn’t want anybody to know—he said he was coming through changing planes and he says he’s sure going to be picked up and he says to say hello to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mrs. GRANT. Maybe a year and a half or 2 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in November 1963?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him on the phone?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know he was in Dallas?

Mrs Grant. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you know that would indicate that your brother, Jack, knew he was in Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. In November 1963?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. I’ll tell you how I figure this out, if I can go see my contract—you see, my band leader was making a record, you know, a record of music.

Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your recollection is concerned, it would be over a year from today?

Mrs. GRANT. Easy—easy.

Mr. HUBERT. And by “contact with him,” of course, I mean—you know—telephone, letters, messages?

Mrs. GRANT. No; he came in—he told me that he knows people at Mercury Records and that if I send in the song he was going to make it, and truthfully, I was glad when he came in, when he left, for more reasons than one. We don’t discuss his background or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s over a year ago—certainly.

Mrs. GRANT. It has been so long—I say a year and a half—the airlines would know quicker than I know because he said he just flew in and he was just there for the evening and going back out, at least that’s what he told me. I don’t discuss his background or anything like that—at least, that’s what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Taylor Crossley?

Mrs. GRANT. What is the first name?

Mr. HUBERT. Taylor [spelling] T-a-y-l-o-r.

Mrs. GRANT. I know a lot of Taylors here but that is the last name.

Mr. HUBERT. No; Crossley. John Melton, and Morris Melton [spelling] M-e-l-t-o-n?

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a person by the name of Elsie Johnson?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know her?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, 8 or 9 years ago she was in the building business with my brother, Sam. Before that—she was a commercial artist.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her—when did you meet her?

Mrs. GRANT. When I first came here, and honest to God, this is one person I can’t tell you even how I met her.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first came here—when do you mean?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say 20 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. 1944—probably?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and let me tell you, she knew a girl, Bobby, whether I met Bobby first—she’s a little girl that worked as a cashier at one of the theatres and was it that she introduced me to Bobby—I knew her very well and her sister and her mother and her brothers, and she became a preacher. She ordained herself.

Mr. HUBERT. Is she a friend of yours?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know if she is an enemy—I just don’t know—it has been years since I have seen her. I spoke to her on the phone. It seemed to me she called me November 24, that afternoon, or her sister did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is her sister?

Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown, and I think she worked at Green’s Department Store.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew Mary Sue Brown also?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; I knew the family. I used to go out there like maybe once a year—Elsie had a car and she would drive me to her mother’s home, which is Mrs. Barnes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they still live in the Dallas area?

Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure they do—I probably have their phone number.

Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that the last time you heard from them was that there was a call from Elsie?

Mrs. GRANT. How sorry she was about my brother—it was on November the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the last contact you had with her?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I saw Mary, let’s see, I saw Mary Sue—I went to one of the stores—I think it was H. L. Green’s and she was waiting on the people, I mean, she was a saleswoman in the store.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s since?

Mrs. GRANT. I haven’t seen Mary Sue for maybe a year and a half previously or Elsie, maybe, I don’t think I have seen Elsie since I am back this time—3 or 4 years—I can’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty between you and Elsie concerning some ring?

Mrs. GRANT. No; the other sister.

Mr. HUBERT. Mary Sue Brown?

Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown.

Mr. HUBERT. What about that?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, she used to come over and stay overnight and I have this diamond ring yet, and it had a little stone in there my mother had given me. There were many stones—from two marriage rings, and a fellow gave me a little stone and my mother’s little—you know, a little diamond—little diamonds. I went to take a bath and I had my money in this purse and it’s a terrible thing—very terrible—it kills me to this day even thinking about it—she was going to stay another day, and I knew how much money I had on me the day before and I bought a little dress and some things I bought. I took her to dinner and stuff like that. She managed to wiggle out of not staying any more. She was very nervous, and that night I get to the club and I put my ring out and you could see the prongs were bent back—the stone was missing, the center stone, which was about, a third of a carat. I called some friends of mine——

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it’s a year and a half—maybe 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on.

Mrs. GRANT. I just don’t remember. Anyway, I called—the vice squad came in very often to the club and I was really very friendly with a fellow by the name of Mike, and I don’t remember who he had with him, and they took the ring to the laboratory—they proved that someone had—I can’t explain it—they said——

Mr. HUBERT. They said that they had taken the stone out by force?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; something like that. Anyway, the thing is, any other thing I wouldn’t have cared about, but that stone, my mother gave me and she swore she didn’t do anything about it, but I’ll tell you, there was some money missing out of my purse and I never felt right about it, and her nervousness in getting out of the apartment and all.

Mr. HUBERT. You made no charges?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I just wished the whole thing hadn’t happened, but I told her I wanted the stone back. I didn’t care about the money—I just was sick.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you during the war done any kind of trading in sugar stamps?

Mrs. GRANT. No; no.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s not true?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I never had any extra stamps outside of what my family had.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever boast to anyone or say to anyone in any way that you had connections with the Capone gang?

Mrs. GRANT. Aw—let me tell you, when I came to Dallas——

Mr. HUBERT. Just answer the question.

Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. And it just kills me—connections—I had no connections.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a Lois, or perhaps it’s Louis Green?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, I didn’t know him. He was in this town. The conversation was great about him. He did not know me—he wouldn’t know me if he saw me and I understand he’s dead. There was absolutely—the man never even talked to me. I wouldn’t know him—short, tall, or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?

Mrs. GRANT. No; not to my knowledge—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of his death?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I was here.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he die—how long ago, do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t know, but I was hurt—you know what I mean—there were certain individuals I read about in the papers. I know he was considered a character.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was with the rough element—he never worked.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, you mean?

Mrs. GRANT. In Dallas—he was a Dallas man, as much as—-you know, when you are in the night club business, you see a lot of undesirable people, but you are not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you got into the night club business yourself.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, when I was on the west coast I ran a restaurant in back of a bar and it seemed to be quite a lucrative business. That was Frankie Nolan’s place on Sunset Boulevard. Now, whether that was the second place or the first place—I don’t know, but then I once went with a fellow, Harvey Brooker, and his mother had a restaurant and I learned to manage that.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in San Francisco?

Mrs. GRANT. No; it was in Los Angeles—both these places were in Los Angeles.

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking particularly about the Dallas area.

Mrs. GRANT. Then, when I came here and I worked for Harvey Phillips, the Southwest Tool & Die Co., some real estate man who he was acquainted with, Fred Shinskey, said, “You know, I know a good spot where the landlord wants to build a restaurant and night club,” and Jack got money from the Earl Products—and sent me $1,100 and I think that was the amount, to put the money down on the lease—the first and the last months of a 10-year lease. Mr. Waddlington, who owned the ground, had built the inside of the building—no; the outside of the building, and part of the inside to my specifications and the idea was that Jack—Jack was in the service but he was very unhappy in being in business with my two brothers, and they sent me some money. I think they sent me—one brother sent me $1,500 and my older brother—with the things he bought and paid for ran about $2,500—like dishes and intercom system and a grand piano—ran to about $2,500—and this is Hyman——

Mr. HUBERT. And so——

Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, and I went into business then.

Mr. HUBERT. That became known as what?

Mrs. GRANT. That became known as the Singapore Supper Club for a little over a year, and it was a very sad—it was too nice a club for that part of town there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Jack join you in that venture?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he was a partner in it.

Mr. HUBERT. And he actually helped operate it?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; listen, I want to tell you, he did all the operating, and the truth of the matter is, had he not known how bad that neighborhood was—you see, I didn’t know, because I didn’t mingle with anybody and I didn’t understand about certain—what they call the tenderloin district, I never heard the word. He was mad that I got involved in that with so much money and then all this work—this struggle for 2 years—It took 2 and 2½ years or 3 years until they built the building.

Mr. HUBERT. He came in what year—Jack did?

Mrs. GRANT. He came right after he got out of service and it seems to me it was in 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed with you running this club for some time?

Mrs. GRANT. I left shortly. I went on the road—I went on the west coast and I was selling fishing tackle for Harvey Phillips, and then I got another line—of radios.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that when Jack came, you left—just about?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, shortly after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You sold out to him?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I just gave him power of attorney. It’s my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. And he invested $1,100?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he invested a lot more—he got more money out of what he sold out of his business in Chicago and I don’t know how much his end of the Earl Products came to.

Mr. HUBERT. He sold or closed the Singapore Supper Club?

Mrs. GRANT. He changed the name to the Silver Spur because that name would fit better in that area.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you have an interest in the Silver Spur?

Mrs. GRANT. He sent me some money when I was broke or sick or I didn’t work or the weather was too hot.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t have any financial interest in the Singapore Club?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I put in money because I made money in the brokerage business. Every time I made money, I would throw it back in—I put it back in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the arrangement between you and Jack as to the ownership of the Silver Spur?

Mrs. GRANT. We were partners.

Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but there was never any half and half. I can’t explain it. He was there and things were so bad, we were lucky we were eating. That’s one of the reasons I left and went out to the west coast on the road with the fishing tackle.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed away from Dallas as I understand it, until approximately 1959, wasn’t it?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; I was here lots of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I understand that, but I mean—you didn’t come back here to live on a permanent basis?

Mrs. GRANT. I was here—I was here the next year—the year after that, and I stayed 2 years and he got involved with another club that a fellow was wanting to sell it and it was called Hernando’s Hideaway and I think that was in 1952 or 1953, and by then—Jack always had his hands in two or three places—whether they are making money or not, and I ran this other club, if I remember, and then I ran the Vegas Club for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. But you came back to Dallas, so that it was on a permanent basis, in what year?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how long I was here then.

Mr. HUBERT. But I think you mentioned a little while ago that you haven’t been out of town—out of this town for 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, I am here 4 years constantly.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I am talking about.

Mrs. GRANT. But this time I was gone about a year and a half or 2, but I have been back here, but I didn’t come to stay.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I understand, so that during the period from 1948 to roughly 1958, a period of 10 years, you were in and out of Dallas, of course?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you didn’t have any connection with any of Jack’s operations here?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the early fifties when I came, I worked at the Vegas Club and as I said, I ran this Hernando’s Hideaway.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of Jack’s acquisition of the Vegas Club?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.