Chapter XX: Part 20
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with reference to Exhibit 5305-F.
Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the name R. T. Brown on there.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.
Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here, numbers or moneys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out how to classify him now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.
Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the street, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of that nature, but he always came to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you, I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the names. I may know them if I see their face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with these.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not familiar with the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the witness.
Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who ever worked for him, Norma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in prizefighting?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to watch them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the fight game when he was a younger man?
Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it was as a youngster.
I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little Lynn.
Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize any of them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?
Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s?
Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here? This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is 5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that name mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes with it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?
Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.
Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.
Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how personal, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?
Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?
Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about that.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how to describe it. He is an idea man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?
Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman——
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?
Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had competition because there was one already out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know the name of the place, in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard project?
Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with them?
Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or from Fort Worth?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of?
Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about this size here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight of an individual.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand on it?
Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the promotion of it with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot now—or the Herald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him?
Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you know, I went up there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys?
Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-S. Gloria Rettig?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”
I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated segments.
Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think.
Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I have seen it on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is actually the second page on which there is any writing.
Mr. SENATOR. Wally what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?
Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is Linda’s last name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like——
Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.
Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume that is Andy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.
Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former stripper of some time back, this Lauri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name?
Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name?
Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, a disc jockey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. But very seldom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. They had a big restaurant there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent?
Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain foods, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel.
Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack see Ralph?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain there were telephone calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?
Mr. SENATOR. By phone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no, but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, no; the club wasn’t even open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might have.
Mr. SENATOR. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t even see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.
The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation. Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i?
Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-y it says here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know. I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay, or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter. I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a porter, or what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl’s name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. Where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?
Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. Now, that is before my relation with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie?
Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number?
Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?
Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?
Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the same one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?
Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?
Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don’t want to hear of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?
Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?
Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not sure. I can’t make it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan?
Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a club for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California?
Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or December. I think it may have been December.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after——
Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?
Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure. I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?
Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?
Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?
Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.
Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last I heard, I think he was living in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a place in another section of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest, Love Field?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers. He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the barber shaves you back here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?
Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast when it is shaved off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them off. He wants them clipped off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather than shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who knows just what to do with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff, you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t know what the stuff was, you know.
I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he couldn’t stand being bald.
He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”. And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or was this something that had come on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t he?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of the day that he would do this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day some time, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer than a woman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?
Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound, although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that was perhaps stitched at the back or something.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the girl or not, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but I am not sure. The others I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?
Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7. Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?
Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?
Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all their life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2 years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with Mr. Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I have never seen him sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or industrial tools?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I think that is what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?
Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no rent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil Hamlin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I ever seen the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?
Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says Grapevine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.
Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.
Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know who this is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number.
Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on it, Sam Schwartz.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?
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Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)Chapter XX: Part 20
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