Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. SENATOR. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it was fun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking?

Mr. SENATOR. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is when we were having lunch.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did yesterday.

Mr. SENATOR. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good enough answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there are some other things in that statement or that interview report that I think you want to change.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to bring that out.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t understand it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to you. Do you want to go over it with me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.”

In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt closer to Ruby in this recent period.

Mr. SENATOR. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him. I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw him more often.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to you? “... than in the past 3 years”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before——

Mr. SENATOR. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, but that is the way I am interpreting it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your moving in with him was not the result of having established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is that it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to know, of these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place to live and so he invited you in with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I identified myself that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you could move in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in good condition, I was hurting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had there been something about Jack before that that had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would respond like this?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, and after that, and I have seen it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had taken in other people or done things for other people?

Mr. SENATOR. The example number one is the chap that I told you is deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in Jack’s apartment for free.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because I didn’t know his business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew Gimpel had been living with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be willing to take you in?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going to happen, but he took me in. I have seen other instances like this chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.

I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time. He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.

And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry, we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to grab a bite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.

Mr. SENATOR. The new place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You made the decision——

Mr. SENATOR. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in there?

Mr. SENATOR. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?

Mr. SENATOR. But not at this place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at another place.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the man better.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job you wanted to move out from him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of the rent.

Mr. SENATOR. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.

And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, 2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he had a rough bringing up and growing up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about that to you?

Mr. SENATOR. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the kids were all separated, things of that nature, when they were young. One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A lot of these things I never even knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this conclusion that you are now drawing——

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of the things he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know about that when you were living with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much, very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back all these years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit 5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what was told to the FBI at that time.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet”.

Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, Dallas, Tex.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?

Mr. SENATOR. You know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit that. I don’t think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t lying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is inaccurate.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:

“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.

This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him 5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a day or two?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview took place?

Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would have been shaken up as well as I.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually happened.

Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there” I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.

Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point:

“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and Commerce in downtown Dallas.”

Now this was before I got to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had known Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he only had the Vegas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think that this deposition will clear this up.

Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the individual’s name, but I know it now.

“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”

But we have talked about that name today.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton.

Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”

Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the conditions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to disclose this?

Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.

“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page?

Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.

Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring to is,

“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”

In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew” comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business expressing political opinions, and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no business expressing——

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a paragraph that starts out:

“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even discussed political matters.”

Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of——

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.

Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t laugh these things off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent lack of interest in politics?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?

Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest?

Mr. SENATOR. Show business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important interest to him?

Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human being.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other paragraphs that you would change or correct.

Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually carried a fairly large sum of money.”

Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this is the point I want to bring out:

“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”

This was an everyday occurrence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day?

Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment or did he keep it in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in a moneybag?

Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.

Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching every move Jack Ruby made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking for a bag all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up occasionally to the club?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in a bag?

Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in the bag.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.

Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these things, shoulder? I have never seen one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that?

Mr. SENATOR. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term?

Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say “This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit more than anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally you are not a homosexual.

Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that Georgie still loves women yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a homosexual, but I am not suggesting——

Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong, but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted. It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, Mr. Alexander said to me:

“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”

He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”

I said, “Two.”

He says, “What are the other rooms?”

I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.”

Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This is what I call it.

“Where do you keep the TV?”

I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. SENATOR. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.

Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; very clear.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, I am interested.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching TV. Is that easy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that logical?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base something like this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. Not the second time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was kept in the living room?

Mr. SENATOR. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witness stand——

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the trial?

Mr. SENATOR. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think it was?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say between 10 and 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day?

Mr. SENATOR. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what it was; it was a weeping day for the city.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from Jack’s when you first heard this news?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore. I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around downtown in the area. No particular place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?

Mr. SENATOR. Probably so; probably so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you were that day, and who you talked to.

Mr. SENATOR. In all probability I probably spoke to many people downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, or something of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a drugstore, someplace like that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department store; definitely I haven’t been in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are talking about someplace where you could get a drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you spend all day watching the events on television?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown uptown. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, from what you said before. You feel that you are?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that I wonder if——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it isn’t a fair impression to draw——

Mr. SENATOR. If it isn’t what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in control of yourself.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I was in control of myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have anything to do with your failure to recollect what you had done that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember where I navigated that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you have dinner that night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even think I had dinner that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when I am out I am free.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that fair to say?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t do much with him; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that probably part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you have ever been there while you were down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.

Mr. SENATOR. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that you can go to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?

Mr. SENATOR. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me. He has pulled it many a time on me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he feel that way about other people?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal habits as much as Jack appears to have done?

Mr. SENATOR. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He sort of treated you like you were his son?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t afford to be throwing my money away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people?

Mr. SENATOR. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word. But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of anything you had done for him?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he helped me out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I “Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother me because with me I knew there was no harm that would be done. But the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were.

Mr. SENATOR. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that——

Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps Sheba——

Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don’t have to make any entry on the page.

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?

Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot.” This is not so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after you sat down?

Mr. SENATOR. I had been sitting already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on page 300 or page 299?

Mr. SENATOR. 299. Now he got this twisted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the part that is twisted.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do you want to go through that again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have told the agent that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home in a short while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is his daughter?

Mr. SENATOR. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? Did you leave word?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George called. I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left right after this call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?

Mr. SENATOR. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,” which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other words, the clubs that Jack owned?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. All right; OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:

“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That refers to Friday.

Mr. SENATOR. November 24.

Mr. GRIFFIN. November 22.

Mr. SENATOR. Twenty-second; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile. You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that he had been to the police station. You didn’t mention——

Mr. SENATOR. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of momentarily when he was questioning me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see him Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told you that?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How else would I have known that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking with somebody or reading something.

Mr. SENATOR. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I want to leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went to the synagogue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on the 24th, that it wasn’t until later.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t see him. I didn’t know it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to the synagogue.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I learned it before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have remembered.

Mr. SENATOR. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on.

Mr. SENATOR. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is an incident I just happened to think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they?

Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that recall anything further to your mind?

Mr. SENATOR. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. Now why didn’t I think of this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is not so extraordinary.

Mr. SENATOR. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.