Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of time——

Mr. SENATOR. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I gather I can remember this part, this one here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I don’t know who he passed them out to.

But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I got them for the men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”? Could that have been the conversation?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister?

Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that?

Mr. SENATOR. From Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again——

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see his sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any locale of the police station he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I am not sure of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes” or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went at the police station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat them up?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool, wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw 8 or 10 in the paper bags.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take a break.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963.

Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this under the same procedures and formalities that we have had since the beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is still in effect.

Mr. SENATOR. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Point out what it is.

Mr. SENATOR. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it is a city, not people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?

Mr. SENATOR. Went to Sebring, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?

Mr. SENATOR. The name was Eggens.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were neighbors from Gloversville?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years.

“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War Second.”

There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the piece of paper?

Mr. SENATOR. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cross out something and write it in.

Mr. SENATOR. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb Squadron.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to cross this out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.

Mr. SENATOR. 22d Bomber Group.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to indicate where you want it to go.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth Air Force before or we can eliminate it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In order to identify that group that you were in——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Write Fifth Air Force in.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on top here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. SENATOR. Fifth Air Force comes first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes?

Mr. SENATOR. Is one sufficient for the whole?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it is April 22.

Mr. SENATOR. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it somewheres on something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to find that. I think you did make that change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.

Mr. SENATOR. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably discharged.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a difference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.”

Mr. SENATOR. I should say honorably discharged.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September 9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former wife is now married.

Mr. SENATOR. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I didn’t spell it right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty, Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York” so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard and Novelty Company and Dexter Press——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter Postcard?

Mr. SENATOR. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Dexter Press?

Mr. SENATOR. Dexter are the ones who make prints.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.” I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and then we will make the changes.

Mr. SENATOR. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front of lunch——

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had something to drink. A cocktail or something?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that changed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of beer.”

Mr. SENATOR. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles of beer?

Mr. SENATOR. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you want that corrected?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would.

Mr. SENATOR. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that initialed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would please.

Mr. SENATOR. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t.

Mr. SENATOR. Now I stated here for the point of information before that “Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even know myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that. This is why I asked you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our court stenographer is here.

Mr. SENATOR. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not easy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are trained to take notes.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are mistakes that crop up.

Mr. SENATOR. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.” Brought food for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it make any difference?

Mr. SENATOR. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had brought over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned anything about going to the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody that I spoke to, see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through completely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. The only way that I can really express this, it could be a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I say on that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.

Mr. SENATOR. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether——

Mr. SENATOR. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew about the sandwiches, right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to recall any such conversation.

Mr. SENATOR. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did or didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any clear recollection?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any conversation about his being down at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your feeling about that now.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. This is the part I don’t understand on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar about this ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday before the President arrived?

Mr. SENATOR. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that that makes you think that?

Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. It was a Friday’s paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on Thursday night, does it not?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if the paper is out at that hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did the night before the President came to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it.

Mr. SENATOR. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What you are saying is that you went to the post office before you had coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened there.

Mr. SENATOR. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right except the reversal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You read the text that is improper.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the point that it gets out of order.

Mr. SENATOR. What I just read where it was out of order?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after you went to the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I think that is clear.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete thing is right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have corrected it on the record?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have——

Mr. SENATOR. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What is unclear about that?

Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the police station. This is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual basis and intended to come back.

Mr. SENATOR. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba with him. That I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you draw any particular significance about his having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning——

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the way I read it——

Mr. SENATOR. You read it. Start with “He said.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let’s read the sentence before that.

“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the police station he went out of his head.”

Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby intended to come back from the police station before he went down there.

Do you still feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. That he intended to come back?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along?

Mr. SENATOR. That isn’t what I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not what you said?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the police station with Sheba.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you think he might have anyhow?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?

Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no plans. Now the money part——

Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he have done with the dog?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot about the consequences to the dog?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he planned nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to kill Oswald or not? Would you still say——

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it would still be of the same nature having the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I can’t visualize anything like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all, he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.

Mr. SENATOR. What safe?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t he have a safe there?

Mr. SENATOR. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did you ever see these little round things that fit into the——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever used the safe I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack ever put his money——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you can’t get to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his money in the bank?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?

Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his pocket, and he had it around the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in the safe?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I know he leaves some at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever kind of lock you call it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there, see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry all of his money on his person and in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far as not carrying it all in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than keeping it in the house.

Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say?

Mr. SENATOR. I never said that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 or $3,000?

Mr. SENATOR. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all that money in his automobile.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See, he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know.

Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?

Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money is. This may sound crazy but it is true.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate?

Mr. SENATOR. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate? A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money. Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how much it was.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5 or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars?

Mr. SENATOR. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money around?

Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I can’t quote how much money he had at any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in the same fashion as we have with the others.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let me make sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview made at your request?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they have something more to tell them.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last 2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your life.

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the feelings here on the record that you gave to me?

Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?

Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance. They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate, something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that you have read so far——

Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the punchy side, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in the sack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the sack it goes in the trunk of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want to——

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not always——

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?

Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it or something like that, who knows where he put it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did Jack Ruby have?

Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car, I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have them on two different rings?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his billfold—what did he do with his——

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like what, a little money fold.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that?

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it?

Mr. SENATOR. The thing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or black.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his automobile that you know of?

Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had for I don’t know how long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the glove compartment of Jack’s car?

Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much gook in there, do you know what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk of his car?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times “How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that garbage in there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there?

Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he kept his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any knowledge, or do you——

Mr. SENATOR. I have never gone through his trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As to what he had in there?

Mr. SENATOR. In the trunk?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but very seldom because he didn’t want me to handle it and I’ll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn’t want me to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where did you get the automobile keys?

Mr. SENATOR. From him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of his person?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is one of the things where he wouldn’t let me drive because he had no insurance, and I wasn’t anxious to drive the car on account of that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have had lunch together.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have talked and you have talked with Mr. Hubert also on these occasions. Is there anything that we talked with you about in these times when we haven’t had a court reporter present that we haven’t covered here in our deposition?

Mr. SENATOR. It would be hard for me to think what you have left out, you know. I have never had a questioning like this in my life before. When I originally came down here I thought I would only be here—I thought the questioning would probably be similar to being questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service. First of all how was I to know? What was I to expect, see? I just couldn’t believe that I would be here 2 days. I couldn’t think how it was possible where you could ask me so many questions, both of you.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you don’t recall anything dealing with the case, an aspect of it that was the subject of a conversation which has not been discussed on the record?

Mr. SENATOR. Offhand, I can’t. Offhand, I just can’t think of any because I think you all know more than I know. If you can remember the Times Square Cafeteria you know more than I know. You are not going to put that too, are you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then ask this one final question.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything should come to your attention in the future, which pertains to the Ruby case that could be of assistance to us, will you contact somebody in the Government and let them know so that we can have a complete record here. He is nodding his head yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Because he can’t write the nod down there?

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed for coming.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say to him that it has been a pleasure to talk with you; we think your cooperation has been most helpful.

TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRIN RICH

The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich.

Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any participation in that death, or the death of President Kennedy by Jack Ruby, certain particular activities of Jack Ruby which you have heretofore told the FBI, and other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that right?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that—when did you receive that letter?

Mrs. RICH. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday, Monday, the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call from Mr. Fahety of the FBI Bureau, Boston, notifying me of it.

It was sent—and at this time I would like to state—and opened by Mr. Rod Kennett, of Executive Limited, 100 Boylston Street, Boston, and there was no possible way that letter could have been opened erroneously. It could not have even by any stretch of the imagination been misconstrued as being office literature. It was personally addressed to me, with the President’s Commission on it.

I want that in the record.

Mr. HUBERT. It is.

Mrs. RICH. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will.

Also that I don’t want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to keep quiet about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been telling everybody in Boston about it. I don’t particularly want it known.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But I am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account.

Mrs. RICH. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work that I do—it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any kind of commission, for anything.