Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room.

Mr. HUBERT. Just one man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State government?

Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because all I know is, he was in plain clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry?

Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.

Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President’s shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to——

Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for your time during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby had been doing too, I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Both of you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the afternoon of Friday, November 22?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the 23d?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him, and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard, “Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him that slipped my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that.

Mr. HUBERT. But if he did——

Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most naturally nervous.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t tell him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.

As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a benefactor for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these two episodes was forgetfulness?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is something that will shake you up.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?

Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot.

Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday night and Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and when I got home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters approximately as you have told us to date?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached in this deposition.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.

Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police officer lasted?

Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in another room, and his story was about the same.

Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started, you know, my name——

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was, you know, like you started off.

Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that nature, like you did.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as it were.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you started off.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the same lines as mine has been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In other words, yours are more thorough.

Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack, having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me from one to the other, it was the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t remember if I did or not, now, on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the Bernard Weissman advertisement?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. I don’t remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took a couple hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more?

Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his name was Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was over? What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?

Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know when I got outside again it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who brought me down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you did not remember who handed you——

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from the——

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who gave it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three attorneys.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?

Mr. SENATOR. I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses?

Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or 3 waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses?

Mir. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the waitresses were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her name. I know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know any of them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?

Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is the father and Charles is the son.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?

Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what she looks like.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never take that much notice of who’s who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew——

Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never went in there, I mean together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say, probably 7 days a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while you were in there?

Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned over the television set that Jack Ruby had——

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you about it. You did not have anything to——

Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t quote myself, if I am that correct or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of contacting after you heard that Jack had shot——

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you——

Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was an attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was that had shot Lee Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being someone from the Carousel Club.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea who shot——

Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I called Jim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say anything to those members of the press?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two policemen nabbed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?

Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer these questions there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that evening about what you had said down at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or someone might try to implicate you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you were at the police station——

Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say the normal person would be shaken up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this. When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or your car?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you parked downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume, I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my knowledge, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?

Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know where he was; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was going to take the dog to the club.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had some indication?

Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?

Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t think about it. There was no particular reason why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the apartment? Did you and he do things together?

Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen, but the overall picture, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in connection with your business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?

Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays normally?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of years to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you are closer to than Barclay and Howard?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many friends that came in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and Martin more often than you saw the other people?

Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the courthouse and things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.

Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was traveling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the closest to?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost every day, especially more so during the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else to whom you felt equally as close?

Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends. I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends I had, good friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been shot was Jim Martin.

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on further. You have had some conversation with him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course, I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in that locale, they knew it before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the jail. Did you meet anyone?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?

Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.

Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.

Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt you?

Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact I was scared for about 10 days after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep in the same place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the normal thing, I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in?

Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve. She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I feared but I just——

Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody——

Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct in a situation such as this.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being to do.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just trying to find out the reason.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no reason for it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.

Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was just a fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of people who might want to hurt you?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?

Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay——

Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m just afraid.”

Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?

Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.

Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but you must have done something——

Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t place my finger on it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have you in mind next?

Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you gave us as to the crackpot.

Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?

Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the point that some people other than a crackpot might——

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the matter?

Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected with anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.

Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was connected with it?

Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in it at all but Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as that.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t think of anything such as what?

Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any nature.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you, obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.

Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to. If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment, his home rather.

Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the land that he lived in as I have told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack didn’t talk to you about.

Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything he did?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He lived in the glamour of the show business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that he was doing?

Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I really answer that and know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to talk about some of the things he is doing.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas Club or in the Carousel Club with you.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?

Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is——

Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax problems?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there, but you don’t know. I mean they don’t tell you everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he considered personal or important to himself wouldn’t talk about it.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think he would discuss everything; as a matter of fact I don’t think there is any individual who will tell you everything. I don’t care who they are. I am certain, I know there are people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else. They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts, their notes, what they owe or what they don’t owe or things of that nature. Everybody has a little secret or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn’t describe Jack Ruby as the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people like that.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other people. Now Jack Ruby wasn’t that kind of person, was he?

Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. I don’t think he would unload everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn’t discuss with me. I am certain he didn’t want me to know everything there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday, the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn’t with me Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t say Barclay. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Tom Howard that night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t remember if I saw him or not that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early?

Mr. SENATOR. You see I can’t quote if I did or didn’t. I just don’t remember if I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It was dark in any case?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin’s house. I think that I slept there that first night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the courthouse all that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I think you said was the TV Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don’t remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to sleep.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time——

Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember but I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s come then to Monday morning.

What happened then?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before you get to Monday morning.

When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I told him. This detective, I guess, I just don’t remember who the man was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you were being interrogated by the police?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there, something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think he saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this other attorney, but I don’t remember if Tom was or not. In other words, I don’t want to quote and say he was or wasn’t because I just don’t remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can’t think if he was or not that night. He may have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him—he asked me what happened, you know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack’s defense?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill Downey and Mike Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them?

Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we went home. At least I went home anyhow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in?

Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I’m trying to think of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can’t even put my finger on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on?

Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think—down where Travis is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I can’t get it off my tongue. It is a short name too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to get up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and Barclay—what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn’t want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they wanted to get home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don’t remember, but I think Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike?

Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Who don’t know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a beer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early hour Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed, how much sleep do you normally put in in a night?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long, which is rare.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you arose by 7 o’clock?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I got up that early.