Chapter XLIII: Part 43

Question No. 6: “To your knowledge did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 and 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He replied “No.”

Question No. 8: “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He replied “No.”

From a review of Mr. Ruby’s polygrams, on series 6, it was noted that there were no significant physiological variations to his response to the relevant questions. It was noted that Mr. Ruby did display slight suppression in his breathing pattern, and a relative decrease in blood pressure with an increase in the heart amplitude at question No. 7. This question was: “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” However, after the series, this question was discussed with him briefly, and he did make mention of the fact that there had been some trouble at his nightclub with regard to the waitresses and big bills. This could be interpreted as a possible deception pattern in that he hedged with regard to the question “Did you ever overcharge a customer.” The total chart minutes of series No. 6 was 2 minutes 50 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant findings on series 6?

Mr. HERNDON. The only significant finding being that the control question 7 displays a more significant variation than his response to the relevant questions. There are no others.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now given us then all the significant findings on series 6?

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are now placing the designation Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 on series No. 7.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you start again, Mr. Herdon, with the relevant questions and tell us the answers and the responses thereto with any significant findings?

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 7 contains four relevant questions.

Question No. 2: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 6: “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 8: “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

There was one other question asked which I consider irrelevant. However, it is of value to the series, and I will make mention of it, question No. 9: “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”

With regard to overall interpretation of series No. 7, I first noticed there is a physiological deviation to Mr. Ruby’s response to question No. 1 which was “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully.” However, my notes indicate that Mr. Ruby talked and said “Yes, I do,” and by actually speaking several words it is believed that this caused the variation in the tracings.

Mr. SPECTER. Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and that explains the changes. On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question pertained to: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” I asked him about this question later when he responded “No,” and I noticed a physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed somewhat with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue.

Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual response.

I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a body movement.

With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4, question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his normal physiological patterns.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings, in series No. 7?

Mr. HERNDON. There was a significant change in his breathing pattern and also a slight decrease in his blood pressure when I asked him the question “Did you attend the synagogue regularly?”

However, this is a control type question, and as later discussed with him, there was some area of doubt in his mind as to whether he attended the synagogue regularly as much as he would like to. The total chart minutes on series 7 was 2 minutes 55 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the relevant findings on chart No. 7?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the findings there starting with the relevant questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions.

No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question, it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in answering the question due to its length.

However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological deviation in his response to that question.

Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no significant change in his normal physiological pattern.

Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological deviation in his response to this question.

Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his physiological pattern.

Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering it, causing a change in the pneumograph tracing. However, there is no significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on series No. 8, correct?

Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique system employed in that series.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation. Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or control questions asked.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a matter of record.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Mr. HERNDON. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant.

Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this series. No significant changes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the total time on that series?

Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that series reading?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. HERNDON. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr. Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were interested in this interrogation.

Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions.

Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Mr. SPECTER. What number question was that again?

Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 10.

Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Mr. SPECTER. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series 9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his responses to these relevant questions.

At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this.

However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series 9a?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series was 2 minutes 30 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant findings.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No. 2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”

Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?”

Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”

Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner.

Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I am a little confused on my notes at this point?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript.

Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and responses, if any?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,” and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question. However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a sentence in response to the question.

Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the components following my asking this question.

Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period.

Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered significant.

The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25 seconds.

In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them.

Mr. SPECTER. By those questions do you mean the ones——

Mr. HERNDON. I am referring to question 5 and 6 in which he did not specifically reply verbally.

Mr. SPECTER. That is “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby answer those in a preliminary session?

Mr. HERNDON. During the preliminary session he did answer those questions.

Mr. SPECTER. What answer to each question did he give?

Mr. HERNDON. To the question “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” he replied “Yes.”

In regard to the question “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the significant findings on series No. 10?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. I will now move to series No. 11 which we will mark for this record as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start on series No. 11, giving the relevant questions, answers and any physiological deviation?

Mr. HERNDON. These questions on Series 11 were primarily asked after a conversation between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Specter at which time Mr. Ruby indicated he wanted some additional questions asked of him.

It was finally agreed upon that we would ask the three following questions.

No. 1 just to establish identity “Are you Jack Ruby?” in which he replied “Yes.”

Question No. 2: “Do you consider yourself to be a 100-percent American patriot?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”

And question No. 3 “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete truth?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

This particular series began at 8:57 p.m., and a review of the physiological responses to these three particular questions indicate that they are not significant. It is believed by the examiner at this point, although Mr. Ruby said he was not tired in his general conversation with the examiner, that he was probably somewhat fatigued, and he was no longer displaying the usual physiological responses expected during the earlier phases of the examination.

The total chart minutes of series 11 is 1 minute 10 seconds. I do not consider anything significant to these particular responses other than the fact that we obliged Mr. Ruby in asking them.

Mr. SPECTER. Was this polygraph examination excessive with respect to length in your opinion, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, it would greatly depend on Mr. Ruby’s physical and mental condition of course. A doctor was in attendance during the examination, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Ruby during the examination how he felt and whether he wanted to proceed. I asked him on several occasions if he would like to take a break or have a drink of water. I cannot specifically state that it did or did not appear to hinder his health or cause him any undue fatigue.

However, I did hear the doctor indicate that there was no undue physical stress or strain on Mr. Ruby during the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Up until the points where you have indicated there were some signs of tiredness, did Mr. Ruby appear to be responding in a satisfactory manner?

Mr. HERNDON. I would say during the first several series of questions, and based on the presumption again that Mr. Ruby was rationally sound and competent during this phase of the examination, that he responded very normally, and the polygraph examination proceeded without any technical difficulties.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Ruby given periodic breaks throughout the course of the examination in addition to that lengthy one between series 4 and series 5?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; he was given a number of breaks and there was no time when he was asked a long series of questions inasmuch as the total chart, minutes on my charts indicate none of them went beyond 3 minutes, which is certainly considered well within standard series total chart minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I would like to make a few additional comments with regard to this polygraph examination, in view of the fact that it was somewhat unique and unusual. I think these factors should be somewhat considered in the overall evaluation of the polygraph examination.

First of all, Ruby has obviously been extensively interviewed by law enforcement officers and by the Commission and other people, and there has been a considerable length of time lapse since the time that the instant offense occurred of him shooting Oswald. These factors of length of time and considerable previous interrogation would tend to detract or negate any specific or definite conclusion that could be rendered with regard to the polygraph examination.

The fact that there were other personnel in the room would tend to negate a valid polygraph technique. However, here again I did mention that this did not appear to bother Mr. Ruby. But it should be considered and made a matter of record.

One other point I would like to mention, and that is the large number of relevant questions asked Mr. Ruby during this particular examination. This is not general standard procedure. However, I realize that the President’s Commission wanted to cover many facets, and that it was mutually agreed upon that we would ask the questions that the Commission had originally drawn up for this particular interrogation. In normal polygraph procedure it is usual to keep the relevant questions down to perhaps several specific critical relevant questions and work strictly on those, and in this particular examination we had a large number of relevant questions to ask.

I think these are all factors that should be considered in the overall evaluation of Mr. Ruby’s polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Herndon.

TESTIMONY OF BRECK WALL (BILLY RAY WILSON)

The testimony of Breck Wall was taken at 2:13 p.m., on August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is being taken at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev. May the record further show it is now 2:13 Pacific daylight time on Wednesday, August 5, 1964. Present is Mr. Breck Wall who has appeared in response to letter notification and also telephone notification.

Mr. Wall, the President’s Commission has asked you to appear here today to testify concerning any knowledge which you may have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his associates, background, and his activities relating to the events of November 22 through November 24, 1963. With that preliminary statement of purpose, I will ask you to rise and raise your right hand, if you would, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. WALL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WALL. My legal name is Billy Ray Wilson but I have used professionally Breck Wall for the last 7 or 8 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you receive a letter of notification asking you to appear here today for your deposition?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that letter contain within it the Executive order creating the President’s Commission and a copy of the rules and regulations for taking of depositions by the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you understand that if you wish, you may be represented by counsel here today?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to have an attorney with you today?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. WALL. Monday night at home. I was performing at the Castaways and a friend of mine signed the receipt on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Under the regulations you are entitled to 3 days’ notice. Are you willing to proceed with this deposition today without having that notice?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, Mr. Wall?

Mr. WALL. Producer; performer.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed at the present time?

Mr. WALL. At the Castaways in Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the nature of your duties in connection with your employment at the Castaways?

Mr. WALL. Well, I perform each night. I don’t understand what you mean really.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of performing do you do?

Mr. WALL. Comedy; musical comedy.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been engaged in that type of activity?

Mr. WALL. About 6 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation before you became an entertainer?

Mr. WALL. College student.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. WALL. Twenty-seven.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. WALL. Well, I only had 1 year of college, University of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WALL. Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live, in a general way, up to the present time?

Mr. WALL. Well, I have lived in Freeport, Tex., that is where I was raised, and Dallas, New York City, Jacksonville, Fla., Orlando, Fla., and here.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in New York City?

Mr. WALL. In 1954 through 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation at that time?

Mr. WALL. I worked as a doorman at Luchow’s on 14th Street.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you live at those various cities in Florida?

Mr. WALL. In between—in the year of 1957 and 1958. I came to Dallas in November of 1958, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it specifically that you lived in Florida then?

Mr. WALL. It was in the first part of 1958 and the latter part of 1957, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Freeman, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Freeport.

Mr. SPECTER. Freeport, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Through school until I graduated in 1953.

Mr. SPECTER. From high school?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you attended the University of Texas in Austin for a year?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live from 1954 until the time you went to New York City?

Mr. WALL. Then New York City from Austin.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go directly from Austin to New York City?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go directly from New York City?

Mr. WALL. To Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. Where you lived for the balance of the time up until November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. Right; sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you went to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you first went to Dallas in November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. I was ill at the time and I had to stay with the McKennas. I was sick at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. And where do the McKennas live?

Mr. WALL. Currently they live in Galveston, Tex. They moved from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the first names of the McKennas?

Mr. WALL. Thomas J. McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there another McKenna?

Mr. WALL. There are—you mean as far as children?

Mr. SPECTER. You say you lived with the McKennas. I take it there was more than one McKenna or was there only one?

Mr. WALL. Mrs. McKenna and three children.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay with them following the time you joined them in November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 2 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you next live?

Mr. WALL. I can’t think of the name of the street. In Dallas. I lived in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. With others, or by yourself?

Mr. WALL. By myself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to know the McKennas?

Mr. WALL. When I was going to high school, I would spend the summer with my family and they lived next door to my family.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you spent the summer with your family who lived next door to the McKennas, was that in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you live with when you went to school in Freeport?

Mr. WALL. With my grandmother who has since deceased.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas, Tex., after November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. When I moved in November of 1958 there, I stayed until I just moved.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you left?

Mr. WALL. We left in January of 1964 to go to Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean by that?

Mr. WALL. The company; the show I am in.

Mr. SPECTER. Which show is that?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in Houston then?

Mr. WALL. We were in Houston for 12 weeks and then from Houston we came out to Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When, to the best of your recollection, did you first meet Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 3½ years ago.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your becoming acquainted with him?

Mr. WALL. We were having financial trouble at a club we owned called the Playbill.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson, my partner. We needed a place to go to do a show. Jack Ruby offered a very lucrative offer to play his new club. It was then called the Sovereign Club which later became the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the nature of the lucrative offer which Mr. Ruby made to you?

Mr. WALL. Well, I think he was going to pay us, I think, I’m not sure, $125 a week plus we were on a small percentage of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you play for Mr. Ruby at the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 8 weeks. Maybe less.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened, if anything, to terminate that arrangement?

Mr. WALL. We got into an argument over a contract that I had signed stating that I would perform the show for one night for around $2,200.

Mr. SPECTER. What show were you supposed to perform for one night?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.

Mr. SPECTER. For whom?

Mr. WALL. I don’t recall the name of the organization. It was a nurses’ organization.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that show supposed to be performed?

Mr. WALL. In the ballroom of the Hotel Adolphus.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of your disagreement with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. He was in a financial bind because the show wasn’t working out like he thought and we were in a financial bind and needed the money and he would let us do it only if we would give him half. We couldn’t because we couldn’t.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean “we”? You still mean Joe Peterson and you?

Mr. WALL. Yes. And we called in the union man of our performing arts called AGVA.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that an abbreviation of?

Mr. WALL. American Guild of Variety Artists. And the AGVA man sided with Jack and we got into an argument wherein Jack punched Joe in the mouth and broke off a tooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Joe Peterson, that is?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. And we left that night. I might also add in the record that the man, the name of the man representing our union, was named James Dolen who was arrested later, some months later, by the FBI.

Mr. SPECTER. On what charge, if you know?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know he was running some sort of bingo game or something illegal in Louisiana.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform that show Bottoms Up?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. Jack Ruby and Jim Dolen took the show over and made our kids perform the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the same troupe then performing the show except for you and Mr. Peterson?

Mr. WALL. The only one we have now with us that did the show with us over at the Adolphus that particular night is Bill Fanning who is in our show.

Mr. SPECTER. After that 8-week connection with Mr. Ruby what later association, if any, did you have with him?

Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t speak to Jack for about, I would say, around 6 months but he and Mr. Peterson became good friends again because they have the type personalities that flare up and forget; and I don’t—I have a mind like an elephant—and they started speaking so, therefore, I started speaking and going back to the club which he changed into a stripper club called the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work for Mr. Ruby again?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then from that time on you knew him as a friend and acquaintance in the Dallas area?

Mr. WALL. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation from the time you left Mr. Ruby’s until you left Dallas in January of 1964?

Mr. WALL. We reopened the Playbill Club for about 4 months and then we went back to the—I’m sorry—then we went to the Maple Theater, did a show for about 6 weeks called Mr. Wonderful, then back to the Adolphus Hotel where we stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do at the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. Performed it in the Century Room.

Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see Mr. Ruby during the years of 1961, 1962, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Well, after we lost the Playbill again for a second time and we closed the show at the Maple Theater, then we were right across the street from where Jack had his club and Jack got a haircut at the barbershop in the hotel, ate in the hotel restaurant, consequently I think that is when he started—he and Joe started being friends and I started seeing him a lot and became good friends; then when we started at the Adolphus in 1962, maybe the latter part of 1961, we started speaking and being good friends. We would go over there sometimes three or four times a week just to see the show and the girls over there which we were good friends with.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge, did Jack Ruby ever associate with any of the criminal element?

Mr. WALL. He always reminded me of a gangster but I have never seen him with anyone.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he always remind you of a gangster?

Mr. WALL. Just the way he talks, you know, he just reminds me of a real hood. Still I have never seen him with anyone that you would call a criminal in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from his appearance and the way he talks do you have any factual reason for saying that he appears to be a hood or gangster?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby ever a member of any subversive organization or any group which advocates the forceful overthrow of the United States Government?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any members of his family or friends ever members of any subversive organization?

Mr. WALL. I only met one relative of his which was his sister, Eva, or Ava, however you would say it. I just met her casually.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her last name?

Mr. WALL. I really don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Grant?

Mr. WALL. Grant. That is right. She ran his club on—what street is it? I have to think of the club for a minute. It is right next door to the B&B.

Mr. SPECTER. The Vegas Club?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Thank you. That was the only time. I have only been out to the Vegas Club maybe twice in the whole time I have been in Dallas but I would see her at the B&B restaurant eating after she had closed her club.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Only after he had shot the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald together at any time?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. He knew most of the policemen on the police force.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby with Officer Tippit?

Mr. WALL. I don’t know what he looks like.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who Officer Tippit is?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. He was the officer who was shot and killed the day of the assassination.

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities on that day to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WALL. That was very easy to remember. We went down to the Adolphus marquee.

Mr. SPECTER. “We” meaning?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and also with us was Nancy Austin, who is in our show, and Kenny Jerome, who is in our show. We watched President Kennedy drive by and I was listening to it on the radio as he was driving and when he passed us he was going 30 miles an hour whereas he had been going 10 miles an hour so we missed him. With all the excitement and everything we didn’t get a good look at him so we went upstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. Your view of the motorcade from the Adolphus was from the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the Presidential limousine passed the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. We wanted to get a better look at the President so Joe Peterson and myself decided to go out to the airport because when he was out there, when he first arrived in Dallas, he stayed out there I think 30 minutes longer than he was supposed to, shaking hands with the people. We thought he might do it again. We ran upstairs to change clothes. It was a very cold day. We needed to put on some warm clothes. We went upstairs to change clothes and go out to the airport. We always left our television on because we have a dog and it sort of keeps him calm. When we opened the door into the bedroom they announced over the television that the President had been assassinated. Joe went down to the—as far as I know he went down to the Book Depository to see what it looked like and I stayed in the bedroom and watched the television to find out what was, you know, going on. We stayed there all that night and we departed for Galveston to get away from Dallas the next day, which was Saturday, at around 3 or 4 in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of Friday night?

Mr. WALL. We stayed and watched television. I didn’t move from the television set.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner that night?

Mr. WALL. In the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to bed on the evening of November 22, if you recall?

Mr. WALL. As far as I know I didn’t go to bed until 5 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do all that night?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the television stations running around the clock?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday, November 23, if you remember?

Mr. WALL. I would say around 8 o’clock, 9 o’clock. I woke up and watched television again.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you eat breakfast?

Mr. WALL. I went down to breakfast on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Down to where?

Mr. WALL. The coffee shop.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Then I came right back up and watched television again until that afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you leave the hotel?

Mr. WALL. About 3 or 4 that afternoon we left for Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. By what means did you go?

Mr. WALL. In our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Saturday?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I called the McKennas to tell them we were coming down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Friday, the day before?

Mr. WALL. I’m sure I made telephone calls to each cast member telling them we would not perform until Monday or Tuesday, that Mr. Anderson didn’t know yet—he is the manager of the hotel—I’m sure I made quite a few calls that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you had a conversation with Mr. Anderson concerning the closing of the show?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. He called us saying there wouldn’t be a show until Monday or Tuesday depending on when the funeral was. He didn’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his full name?

Mr. WALL. All I know is Andy Anderson. He has initials. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What members of the cast did you call following your conversation with Mr. Anderson?

Mr. WALL. Everyone in the cast, and I may forget a few names. I can list them if you’d like.

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

Mr. WALL. Carl Tressler in Fort Worth. There would also be Eddie Parker, Bill Fanning, Suzanne Malone.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?

Mr. WALL. In Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does Carl Tressler live?

Mr. WALL. Fort Worth. All the cast members in our show live in Dallas with the exception of Carl Tressler and Eddie Parker who live in Fort Worth. All of my calls would have been in Fort Worth except for the long distance calls in Galveston. We have had so many castings I really can’t remember the rest of the people we had in our show. Possibly I made a call to Hazel Rippe, if she was still in the show.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been in Dallas also?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. All these telephone numbers would be in Dallas. Hazel wasn’t in our show. There is another phone number in Fort Worth, it was a girl dancer in our show by the name of Ryna Hradecky, who was a friend of Carl Tressler’s, so, therefore, I might have given a message to Carl to call Ryna because I couldn’t get her at home at that particular time but if I had any calls to Fort Worth it would be to Ryna also. There would be one or two other calls to Dallas which would be cast members but I really can’t think who was in the show.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you call Tom McKenna?

Mr. WALL. It would probably be, I would say, around 2 in the afternoon because we decided very quickly we were going. We just got tired of laying around the room watching television. I was beginning to get “buggy.”

Mr. SPECTER. Could you have called him as late as 5:30 that afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then the balance of that afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch television all the time up until the point when you left to go to Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. It would be 11 o’clock; somewhere around 11 o’clock.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is it from Dallas to Galveston?

Mr. WALL. I didn’t make the call from Dallas to Galveston at 2—it must have been 5:30—because it only takes 4½ hours.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the distance?

Mr. WALL. Around 200 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any stops en route?

Mr. WALL. Only for gas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner?

Mr. WALL. We didn’t have dinner. We don’t ever eat when we drive to Galveston, just go straight on down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you eat when you arrived at Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; we ate at the house.

Mr. SPECTER. At Mr. McKenna’s house?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston that night?

Mr. WALL. Well, just as nearly, as quickly as we arrived is when we got a telephone call from Jack Ruby. After I talked to him we sat and visited and then went to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did the telephone call from Mr. Ruby last?

Mr. WALL. I would say it couldn’t have been more than only 5 minutes. Maybe 3½ minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. State, as precisely as you can recollect, exactly what Jack Ruby said to you and what you said to him during that telephone call.

Mr. WALL. Well, he was having trouble with the union, or AGVA, and I had been elected the president of the council, newly elected president, and we had not even had a meeting yet but—I can’t remember—he was having some sort of problems with his girls and the union was going to make him do something, which I didn’t think was right. I told him I would help him out and make sure his case was presented correctly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the union trying to make him do?

Mr. WALL. I don’t recall. I really don’t know but—I wasn’t going to be on his side, but I was going to be sure it was presented correctly, that we would get his angle as much as the union’s, the girl that was reporting him or whatever the circumstances were.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you friends with Mr. Ruby at this time?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. He was very upset the President was assassinated and he called Abe Weinstein or Bernie Weinstein, he called them some names for staying open Friday night.

Mr. SPECTER. What club did they run?

Mr. WALL. They—I don’t know which one owns which. One owns the Theater Lounge and the other owns the Colony Club, and he was very upset that he had closed and they stayed open. He thought it wasn’t right and he wanted to know when I would return to Dallas and I told him probably Monday or Tuesday and he said, well, when I got in to town would I call him, which I said I would. He asked how everything was. I told him fine and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else he said during that telephone conversation?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else that you said to him during that call?

Mr. WALL. Only if I told him why I left Dallas. He asked what I was doing in Galveston. I told him I just wanted to get away for a couple of days.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention Lee Harvey Oswald in that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention anything about any assassin or the assassin whoever he might be?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. The only thing that he said which would be important to the Commission was that he was very upset that the other clubs had decided to stay open and that they did not have the decency to close on such a day and that he thought out of respect they should close. That is the only thing I recall that he said that would be of any importance. The other things were about his business with the union, how we were and why we went down to Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about any intention he might have to do anything to Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that telephone call on the night of November 23, when was the last time you had talked to Ruby before that?

Mr. WALL. It could have been 2 or 3 days before. I don’t know, as I said. I saw him that often, you know. I do recall the last time I was in his club was the week before he shot Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in his club during that week?

Mr. WALL. We had signed a contract to go into the Continental Hotel in Houston and we had the——

Mr. SPECTER. By “we” you mean you and Joe Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Right. Whenever I use “we” that is always Joe Peterson. And we had—the man who signed us felt pretty good about it and wanted to stay up beyond 12 o’clock, which is our curfew in Texas, and the only place that was open is the three exotic clubs and we decided to take Larry Grayson, booker of the Continental, to Jack Ruby’s club and let him see a stripper called Jada.

Mr. SPECTER. Weren’t the exotic clubs governed by the curfew?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I’m sorry. The Theater Lounge and the Colony Club did close—I’m sorry. They didn’t close. No; they didn’t. You could serve a beer called near beer which did not contain any alcohol, or they would serve coffee. They did not have to close at the same time the others closed; so we took Larry and went over there and stayed up until around 2 or 3. I recall the incident, by the way, that Jack was having trouble with the union about.

Mr. SPECTER. What incident was it?

Mr. WALL. It was something about the comic had to perform in between each stripper to lengthen the time of the show and where he had lined up three strippers at one time and then a comic and then three strippers again. He was having trouble with time. He wanted to make the show continuous and this was the problem he was having, so the night that I went to the Carousel Club with Larry Grayson and Joe Peterson he, himself, got on stage and entertained for 30 minutes with a raffle and I recall that Larry turned to me and said—every time that Jack would do something he would try and be very funny—every time he would do something he would turn to me and say. “Is that all right, Breck?” and Larry turned to me and said, “He thinks a great deal of you. Every time he does anything he turns to you,” and I said, “Yes.” I definitely remember that. That was the problem of trying to make——

Mr. SPECTER. What night was that?

Mr. WALL. It was at least a week before, maybe not—maybe not quite a week.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall the specific night that was?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I can’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that time when had you last seen Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I really don’t know, sir. I don’t think probably I saw him at all until after the President had been shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I’m going back, before the time you said you had this conversation with him on that Saturday night when you were in Galveston. You saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club some time about a week before the assassination?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When, prior to the time you were in the Carousel Club a week before the assassination, had you last seen Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Possibly on the street or something. I had gone up to the club a week or two before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you discussed this problem concerning the American Guild of Variety Artists with Jack Ruby prior to that telephone conversation on November 23?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you discussed it with him before?

Mr. WALL. He had called me——

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Mr. WALL. Possibly 2 weeks before the assassination—telling me his problem and wanting to know when it would be brought up at the meeting, and I told him that we usually met the 15th of each month and that at the next meeting I would—I’m sorry. I made an error. We meet every Thursday. Every Thursday there was a union meeting and the 15th is when we meet privately, I think.