Chapter XL: Part 40

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how it ever came to be there.

Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series.

(Reporter’s note: 7:12 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander returned to the room.

Would you now proceed, Mr. Herndon, to the next series, and we’ll go through those as rapidly as you can.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby. I’ll just read these right down the line, and if you have any question, then interrupt me. Otherwise, I’ll just keep going.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”

Mr. RUBY. No—not of late, because of my businesses and my sister was ill and I had to help at both places—I had to run both places.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, If you feel it is proper, you can answer that question.

Mr. RUBY. This was a special occasion, this Friday night—I wanted to go there because of this tragedy happening.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. The way I mean that question is—do you attend the synagogue regularly and at every usual service?

Mr. RUBY. Well, yes—on high holidays and when my father passed away, I went there consistently for 11 months; morning and evening.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Now, “that Friday night”—you know the night we’re talking about?

Mr. RUBY. Friday night.

Mr. HERNDON. The night of the assassination?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question—it’s simple and short: “Do you pray?”

Mr. RUBY. Not now, because it’s hopeless. I did.

Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it “Yes” or “No” when the question comes.

Mr. RUBY. Pardon me—I take it back—I do pray. I say certain prayers.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on a Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”

Mr. RUBY. Let’s have that again?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”

Mr. RUBY. You mean at the police station? No.

Mr. HERNDON. Just so we have it clear—what we mean here is——

Mr. RUBY. You mean in my possession?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you insert in there—“at the jail”—“did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. If you put it in his car or on his person, I think he can answer it better.

Mr. RUBY. No—because I recall when I first said I did, and then I changed it later.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, so you understand what I mean when I say “Did you have a gun with you?” I mean on the person.

I’m going to ask this question which one of the gentlemen recommended, and it is, “Have you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I may have left out certain things because I was a little—I wasn’t as calm as I am now, so in reality, certain things I could have said, I’m sure in my frame of mind now I would be able to do it better, but I told the truth at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we could rephrase it and say, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I can say that.

Mr. HERNDON. The question will be then, as Mr. Specter put it, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. Any questions, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Fine; I will proceed.

(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this will be series No. 7.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now left the room.

Mr. RUBY. I wonder why Mr. Tonahill is here. He’s not my attorney. Clayton, is Joe Tonahill representing me?

Mr. FOWLER. Well Jack, in some capacity, I think he is still involved.

Mr. RUBY. Well—yes and no.

Mr. FOWLER. But please don’t worry about it at this time. He is here.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you mind if I tighten the rubber tube on your chest just a slight bit more?

Mr. RUBY. Make it as tight as you want it. I want to get it right.

Mr. HERNDON. No; I don’t want to make it too tight, I want to make it comfortable.

Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Holman). Are you coming to work tomorrow? I don’t know where you’ll find me. How about you, chief?

Mr. HOLMAN. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just breathe naturally and sit up a little bit straighter. That’s good. That’s fine, Mr. Ruby.

(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. [At this point Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers twice.]

I will tell you once again when the test will begin. Answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” Try to sit perfectly relaxed and try not to move. Look straight ahead, if you will, Mr. Ruby.

Did you just have a gas pain or something trouble you?

Mr. RUBY. No; nothing.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, relax. We will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 7:18 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer these questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes; I do.”

Mr. HERNDON. Just answer the questions “Yes” or “No,” please.

Mr. RUBY. OK.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”

Mr. RUBY. How can I answer that one?

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you pray?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”

Mr. RUBY. “No”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. Just sit still for a moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move.

(Reporter’s note: 7:21 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. At the beginning of that series, Mr. Ruby, you displayed a little nervousness and a little tension. Perhaps it was the question I asked with regard to the synagogue. Did that upset you in any way?

Mr. RUBY. Because—you’re ashamed to admit you haven’t been going regular—yet, you don’t want to come out with a blunt answer “No”—it makes you sort of an atheist, and I didn’t want to answer it that way, but I do go to the high holidays, but going regular and going to the high holidays are two different ways of going. People that go regular go every Friday night and pretty regular during the week, but my hours were entirely different. I mean—I’m trying to explain that to you.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that’s what I want you to do. Go ahead, sir.

Mr. RUBY. I could say “Yes” and I would be lying to you saying “Yes”. Anyway, the last couple of years—the last year and a half or 2 years have been very tough to me businesswise and I’ve stayed pretty close, outside the high holidays.

Mr. HERNDON. Did that question disturb you in any regard when I asked, “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday——”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Before you went to the synagogue?” You did show some reaction, will you tell me that, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Because I knew that some man in the trial said I did come down there, and naturally, that came flashing into my mind.

Mr. HERNDON. Was this some man at the trial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Did he testify?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; Mr. John Rutledge. He said I was down there earlier, when I wasn’t—and the association of this man came to my mind. Can you ask me that over again?

Mr. HERNDON. I don’t think I have to, Mr. Ruby. I wanted to get your explanation of why. Did you feel a reaction to that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because it’s like the Wall Street Journal question—when you asked me that. I get nervous too. When they said they found it in my car, there must be some reason that it was found in my car, when I know I never did see this particular paper.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, at this trial Mr. John Rutledge’s testimony conflicted with what you had said, is that correct?

Mr. SPECTER. Not what he said, Mr. Herndon. He didn’t testify.

Mr. RUBY. He testified emphatically—it looked like I was trying to find out who this Oswald was, and if I went down there more than once.

Mr. HERNDON. I see. You did feel the reaction on that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I think we can proceed on to the next series.

Mr. SPECTER. We’re now at series 8, correct?

Mr. HERNDON. The next series will be 8, correct.

(Reporter’s note: 7:23 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned now.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. We shall continue, and these are questions we want to put to you for this next series.

“Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, is that question too long for you to answer it clearly?

Mr. RUBY. No; no.

Mr. HERNDON. Of course, there are two parts there—the Communist Party or any other group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government—do you understand the question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; very much so.

Mr. HERNDON. And then I will ask you, “Did you legally change your last name?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you again at the beginning of the test, “Is your last name Ruby?” I’m going to ask, “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase those, Mr. Herndon. “To your knowledge, is any member of your family——”

Mr. HERNDON. Rather than “Do you know——”.

Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you put it stronger—ask me the question without—to my knowledge—the answer is “No”. When you say—to my knowledge—you leave an opening there.

Mr. TONAHILL. Say—“Is any member of your family a member”——

Mr. SPECTER. We will take that and make it categorical—without the prefix.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, I don’t want any opening for any doubt that there is.

Mr. HERNDON. Both those questions I started, “Do you know,”—I’m going to just start the question—“Is any member of your family”—et cetera.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Is that all right with you, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; emphatically.

Mr. HERNDON. Here again, “Is any close friend or any member of your immediate family,”—I will have to change this one. I shall ask the question this way, unless you have reason to object. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I say I know they did——

Mr. HERNDON. Do you have knowledge, in other words?

Mr. RUBY. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat it.

Mr. HERNDON. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s a very valid point.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. How do you want that, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Is that all right?

Mr. SPECTER. That phraseology is satisfactory.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr. Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know that they didn’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do you know”——

Mr. HERNDON. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.”

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question on them.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series.

(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this is series No. 8.

All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin asking questions.

The test will now begin.

“Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you legally change your last name?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend, a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will release the pressure on your arm.

(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that you got the intent of them all right.

Mr. RUBY. Sure; I did.

Mr. HERNDON. That will complete series No. 8.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very short recess, and resume in just a few moments.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on?

Mr. RUBY. All right.

(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session.

Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls?

Mr. SPECTER. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. I know you are for me, Joe, I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next series of questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right?

Mr. RUBY. Fine.

Mr. HERNDON. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good number of questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called 9 and a series called 9a.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that you understand what they are.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too?

Mr. SPECTER. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now we’re focusing on this.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr. Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go ahead, I don’t want to throw you off.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?”

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we do. Use “and.”

Mr. RUBY. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It could have been placed there at a later date?

Mr. ALEXANDER. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and it had “X” number on the box.

Mr. RUBY. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come out still before that?

Mr. ALEXANDER. It did.

Mr. RUBY. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently. It just came out about a week ago.

Mr. ALEXANDER. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I saw the key that night.

Mr. RUBY. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look like it’s close to mine; I know that.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane here.

Mr. RUBY. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that.

Mr. ALEXANDER. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night.

Mr. SPECTER. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a chance under the polygraph examination to cover it.

Mr. RUBY. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you wanted to do that.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed, inventoried, and——

Mr. RUBY. What Friday night?

Mr. ALEXANDER. The Friday night of the assassination.

Mr. RUBY. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. RUBY. Did the public know about it and everybody else?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I’m sure they did.

Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.

Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear?

Mr. RUBY. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing, Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you have to put it down?

COURT REPORTER. Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr. Specter.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record at this point.

(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item previously mentioned—off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the record as to this point, if it’s all right with you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense. What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors got it.

Mr. RUBY. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or $1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely in another night or two.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off the record that ought to be on the record.

Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me to go through what I said to you now?

Mr. SPECTER. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the substance of what he has previously said.

Mr. RUBY. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation, for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera.

Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of the Vegas Club and the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200 in cash?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover the substance of the matter in that question.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a good return anyway.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready?

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby, we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign government, so that you may understand the full import of that question.

Mr. RUBY. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other words—well, we’ll get to that.

Mr. HERNDON. “No” is the answer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Officer Tippit?”

Mr. RUBY. This is off the record for a minute, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the record on this question.

Mr. RUBY. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the police department. I only knew one.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. He’s the one who was slain?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think he was the one.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about, Bill?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes; but that’s not the one.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know this Tippit.

Mr. ALEXANDER. This boy had always been a radio patrolman.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know him.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s what I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is responsive so that we are clear.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I gave the answer “No.”

Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. Repeat that question?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to the assembly room?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of KLIF?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make that correction.

Mr. RUBY. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that?

Mr. HERNDON. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s clear and concise for you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking about that was killed.

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will proceed on those.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series.

Mr. ALEXANDER. What was that last question?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?

Mr. RUBY. No.

(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your arm.

Mr. RUBY. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because there’s a lot of pertinent stuff.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And relax and exhale.

For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall begin again in a moment.

Mr. RUBY. Okay.

(Reporter’s note: 8:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax, Mr. Ruby.

Does your arm feel all right?

Mr. RUBY. Fine—I’m all right.

Mr. HERNDON. I will continue this next series of questions and it will be listed as series 9a.

(Reporter’s note: 8:17 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. We will begin again.

“Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your club?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. I will release that pressure and you can now relax.

(Reporter’s note: 8:20 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be relaxed and feeling fine.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you ready, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that completes that series.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned to the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Shall I go right into the next series?

Mr. SPECTER. Go right into the series. We just did series 9 and 9a, and we are now going to series 10.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; we just have a few more questions.

Mr. RUBY. That’s wonderful, except there are a few things that I think you’ve left out.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Mr. Ruby. If you have additional questions you want asked, we will do our best to cover anything additional when we finish.

Mr. HERNDON. Here are the next questions which I would like to ask you, Mr. Ruby, on the next series. Again, I want to make sure that you understand each and every one of them.

“Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything at the time you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Have any members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Not up to this point; no.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, the question can be answered in your mind either “Yes” or “No”?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—so, I’ll say “No.” Oh, I see what you mean.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you”——

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I realize this is based on your recollection, but if you feel you can answer it “Yes” or “No,” fine.

Mr. RUBY. The trouble is I didn’t hear any sounds of voices—then, I’ve got to say “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. It’s your recollection you don’t recall Blackie Harrison speaking to you just before you shot Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you answered the question “Yes.” Did you say something immediately before you shot Oswald?

Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask that on here and then ask him about that again.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but I would like to cover it in advance. What did you say to Oswald, if you don’t mind?

Mr. RUBY. I said, “You killed my President, you rat”—something like that. “You killed my” or “our President, you rat.”

Mr. SPECTER. I would like then to modify that question, Mr. Herndon. “Did you say anything to Oswald immediately before shooting him, other than, ‘You killed our President, you rat’”? If that’s not too long. I’d like that.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, just let me sit down and take a good look at that question.

(At this point there was a conference between Messrs. Specter, Alexander, and Herndon out of the hearing of others in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, would you now read the question to Mr. Ruby as we have modified it after consultation.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, the question will be this way: “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than that what you testified about?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. The testifying about was pertaining to those statements that you’ve just told us here a few moments ago. Do you follow me there?

Mr. RUBY. The statement I made?

Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will proceed with the series again.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed with the series.

May the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have left the room.

(Reporter’s note: 8:25 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to begin now, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will uncross your legs and put your feet flat on the floor, please, Mr. Ruby, and are you comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Will you look straight ahead during the actual asking of the questions.

For the record, this is series No. 10.

(Reporter’s note: 8:26 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I notice during the time—all the time I ask you questions, Mr. Ruby, that you close your eyes. If that’s a way that you can concentrate, that’s perfectly all right.

Mr. RUBY. That’s why—if I were guilty of something or if I were trying to evade something, certainly closing your eyes would be less advantageous for you to cover up something. Do you follow me? In other words, closing your eyes means that I do want to tell the truth.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s what I want you to do—just concentrate on the question alone and you have to make that decision whether you will answer it “Yes” or “No”.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I was trying to cover up anything, I wouldn’t try to get more of a vision of what you’re trying to refer me to.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will look straight ahead now, and sit perfectly still, we will begin, and I will let you know when we’re going to ask the first question.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, I’m trying to be more emphatic with the truth when I close my eyes—more than the truth.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you put your complete left hand on that arm rest—that’s it.

(Reporter’s note: 8:27 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.

“Is your name Jack Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what you’ve testified about?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.” May I interrupt?

Mr. HERNDON. Just sit perfectly still. We will discuss the questions later, Mr. Ruby.

“Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. Ruby (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. Ruby (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Hanson speak to you just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That will conclude that series, and just sit still a moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will let the pressure out. Now, as soon as I shut this off, we will discuss these questions.

(Reporter’s note: 8:30 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. On that series of questions, Mr. Ruby, you failed to respond or answer one or two of these questions, which I’ll give you an opportunity now to make any comment you wish to make about them.

Question No. 5, I asked, “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Well, they’re always exposed to it, so I don’t know how to answer that.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you felt it would be difficult for you to say either “Yes” or “No”; is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right; the same way with Fowler. I know when he’s representing me, he’s putting himself on the spot.

Mr. WOOD. Neither the court reporter nor I got the last name of “Blackie”—exactly.

Mr. HERNDON. I believe I said “Harrison.” That’s the way I had it in my notes, but perhaps you might have gotten the impression I said “Hanson.” You knew who I was talking about, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s the main thing that you knew exactly who I meant.

Mr. SPECTER. I believe you said “Harrison.”

Mr. Ruby, are there any other questions which you would like to be covered with you?

Mr. HERNDON. Excuse me, Mr. Specter, I have one more question here. For my records—he did not respond to question No. 6. If you want, I can go over that and we can discuss that question without any response.

Mr. SPECTER. No; I’d like to discuss that. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have already returned to the room, and I would like to discuss that if it’s all right with you here. Let the record show that we would like to cover that now.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, on that last series, I asked a question, “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” You remained silent, which is one of the instructions I gave you, if you so pleased to do. Would you at this time indicate to me why you wanted to remain silent?

Mr. RUBY. Well, No. 1, this is quite a notorious thing, and don’t forget, it’s just like I specified when Earl Warren was in danger, you know, so he is—in other words, people have a dislike for me, and Mr. Fowler is trying to defend me, and this won’t make him too popular a person—too well liked of a person, I should say.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, you just simply didn’t want to come out with a “Yes” or “No” answer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I wouldn’t know how to answer that.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Specter. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, do you now have any other questions which you would like us to ask you on this polygraph examination?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; “At what time did I first think of wanting—when was the first time it ever entered my mind that I wanted to commit this act?”

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We asked you that.

Mr. RUBY. You did—because if anything prior to that—in other words——

Mr. SPECTER. No; we asked you that very carefully a number of ways and one way was when Mr. Herndon asked you did you think of it on Friday, and you said “No”; did you think of it on Saturday morning—“No”; did you think of it on Saturday evening—“No”; on Sunday morning “Yes,”—so we’ve covered that very thoroughly.

Mr. RUBY. Have I ever received any monies—we don’t need that, do we, for subversive purposes or anything.

Mr. SPECTER. I think we’ve covered that whole area very carefully.

Mr. RUBY. Now, what about my being present in the News Building that morning? Here—the assassination took place across the street from there?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have covered that when we asked you if you told the truth on your testimony before the President’s Commission, because you went into that on June 7, and that isn’t nearly the central issue as the other specific questions we have asked you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but if I was in a conspiracy, wouldn’t it start off with that point? Oh, yes; they didn’t ask me another question: “If I loved the President so much, why wasn’t I at the parade?” Is that a very important question to ask?

Mr. SPECTER. We have considered those questions and that was when we reviewed the transcript of your testimony, and quite frankly, we have rejected them as being not important.

Mr. RUBY. You have? I see. Now, isn’t it strange—now, I want to tell you something that’s noticeable in this part of the country about the poll tax, and there are a lot of other reasons, maybe. I’m reluctant to buy my poll tax in time, and I don’t recall whether or not—is this all right to go in the record if I speak?

Mr. SPECTER. You may go on the record with any facet you think is important for the Commission to know about.

Mr. RUBY. And yet, it’s strange that perhaps I didn’t vote for President Kennedy, or didn’t vote at all, that I should build up such a great affection for him, when everything points against me. For instance, the parade issue I referred to. How can I answer that and still show my sincerity or my feelings and why I was carried away so emotionally to do something like that, that has put me in such serious trouble?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, there’s no way to put that on the machine other than to ask you if you told the truth in your testimony; and that’s an opinion without concrete facts.

Mr. RUBY. But I don’t remember if I got all the testimony in when Warren was here.

Mr. SPECTER. You testify now as to anything you want to add and we can ask you one question at the end and that will be “Have you told the truth in everything you’ve said here today?” That one question will cover everything you said, so that if any other phase comes to your mind now, let us hear about it.

Mr. RUBY. What I’m trying to bring out is this: It’s—and everyone was very much surprised—why should I be carried away so emotionally to commit the act, and yet knowing how I felt and knowing I know I’m telling the truth, how can we bring that point out that I am not sincere in why I did it?

Mr. SPECTER. We can bring that out with the one general question. Now, is there any other topic you would like to testify about and have us check you on your truthfulness?

Mr. RUBY. Yes—whether or not I was ever mixed up with the underworld here or involved in any crime?

Mr. SPECTER. You’ve been asked that specifically, and you’ve testified about that.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. You see, I’ve been in Dallas 17 years and yet suddenly I get involved in a very serious crime and I was very popular with the police department and a lot of other people, and the irony is—it took a complete reverse of that, because of various suspicions, nature, and so on.

I wonder if you follow what I’m trying to bring out? Maybe there’s something we can cover in that area.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s cover it this way. “Were any of your relations with the police department improper?”

Mr. RUBY. No—you, like doing business or something or other?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes?

Mr. RUBY. No—none whatsoever.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, would that question cover what you had in mind?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Tell us what you had in mind and then we’ll frame the question, because that’s an area.

Mr. RUBY. Whether or not I am of criminal background or whether I’m an honest and sincere person, because all those things came out and suspicions came out that Jack Ruby was involved in this and that and leaves a lot of suspicion as to my background and my character. That’s very vague, but that’s what I’m trying to bring out.

Mr. ALEXANDER. How would this question be? “Are you a police character?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent patriotic American citizen?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s better—that’s the question.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding patriotic citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent American patriotic citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That can be asked.

Mr. RUBY. That’s very good, because—shall I elaborate on this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I became closely attached to our beloved President when he gave that wonderful speech when we had our problem in Cuba at that time. That was a very tremendous speech and then I followed him on television and in magazines wherever he went—to Ireland and different places.

Now, Joe asked a very good question. In other words, either you are American or you’re half and half or you’re indifferent to the way you feel about your country and how much you love it.

When he stated to me a moment ago, “Are you 100 percent American?”—that’s the way you feel about your country. I don’t know how to state it but first of all, I want to make sure—I’ve got my flags in both colors—that doesn’t show any overt—but inwardly, I’m a very unstable person. I’m very lax in certain details and things, and yet for the emotional feeling and the feeling for giving my life and for loving this country is so great, that I think when you asked me that question, “Are you 100 percent American?” and if I answered the truth, it will greater effect than any other way you can ask me.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we can cover that one in a specific question, in another general question, on whether you have told the complete truth here today. Are there any other topics which you want to cover?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, sir. Has any of the underworld ever contributed money to me for my clubs, or was I put in here as a front for the underworld or things to that effect. I mean—this has a relationship to criminal intent.

Mr. SPECTER. We’ve asked you the question if the underworld had any connection with the shooting of Oswald.

Let me now ask you for the record while you are under oath, whether you were put in here by the underworld?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the underworld contribute in any way to the financing of any of your clubs?

Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any connection or association in any way whatsoever with the underworld during the past 17 years you’ve been in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Never have.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, we’ll ask you in a few moments with Mr. Herndon, whether you’ve told the truth, and that will be covered—that will cover this underworld question.

Mr. RUBY. Just the one question is enough to cover it?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon advises that it is.

Mr. HERNDON. I can ask that question and have it a matter of record.

Mr. RUBY. You see, there are so many things that I know in the minds of the people in Dallas that you’re not concerned with, that maybe I was put here as a front of the underworld and sooner or later they will get something out of me that they want done to their advantage.

Everything I have had financed, my brother Earl has contributed the money for or Ralph Paul, a friend of mine, has loaned me money.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, if I can interrupt—on some of these questions you are recently discussing here are more or less in the area of emotions and the area dealing with advance psychology or of a psychiatric nature, and although I can ask them if you so wish, they are questions that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the polygraph technique.

Unless you can specifically break them down to a clearcut question which could be answered truthfully “Yes” or “No,” that involves a specific action or emotion that he can recall in regard to a particular action, then it would not be a good question here.

Mr. SPECTER. I agree with you.

Mr. HERNDON. You see, this 100 percent American type question doesn’t necessarily lend itself to polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. I agree with your conclusion, but what we’re trying to do now is to cover all of the important substantive questions which I think we have. After Mr. Ruby tells me that he is satisfied with what we have covered, I propose to ask the same question of Mr. Fowler and Mr. Alexander and also Mr. Tonahill, so that we will have covered the subject matter. We will do our utmost to be all-inclusive here, so that whatever effect the polygraph can gage as to Mr. Ruby’s truthfulness, we will do so.

Mr. RUBY. Let me put it this way: Here I run a nightclub. I run a nightclub and on Friday this tragic event happens and I get carried away more so than anyone else. Why? Why was I so sick mentally or so carried away?