Chapter IV: Part 4

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a record of your aunt’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she lived in Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.

Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?

Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had killed Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s being shot.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was and that I had been working for Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about that I might be suspected of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, didn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over the news that way.

Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed much earlier than when you got to see your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?

Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an employee of Ruby’s.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that you would clarify the record on it.

I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?

Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that topic, Mr. Hubert?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced homosexuality between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two of them in this way.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep secret from other people.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that activity?

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.

Would you tell us what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was made before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more than I had been with anybody else on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the afternoon of the 23d.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be Armstrong; isn’t that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could have gotten it from?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too much. I had a couple of the papers——

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other news media?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to what person that might have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on television Sunday.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch television along the way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and saw him on the morning after.

Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, when you called him at his home——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the assassination?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I worked for Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on Friday?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was the suspect?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you heard that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some detail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did first, how long you watched television, and so forth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into that office and start to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the telephone?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——

Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to the telephone in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of those?

Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about 10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things transpired on television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the television on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards during that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby came into the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just watch TV?

Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in his office?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?

Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there by the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t really say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal of any sort, any food?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you sat and watched it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you recall if she came?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same as saying that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would you, that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for example?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them came into the club, but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, 10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long as 10 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one at the bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we could hear, but we was talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long pauses in the conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped, we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a couple of hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his office and watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with Jack in his office watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his office to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came before we went back into the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about the dog that you were going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a fair statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when that shock hit you.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you admitted it was a shock.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who told it to you, or was anybody else present?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is very vague in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us a bit more as to who actually told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was before I left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us it had to be Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at another time unless it was the truth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted out of it.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious thought.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought about for any period of time. It would have been something that I had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on a conscious level I will say no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well, how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about Ruby being involved with him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being involved until Monday morning.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other things, it had to be Armstrong.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think about this statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives in Michigan about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do you think you would have remembered that kind of information being conveyed to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that——

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who said that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally that I knew of.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you out.

If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one reaction on you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been different depending upon when you heard it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different types along the lines I have said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did not.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I didn’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you if you knew of any connection between them?

Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I didn’t remember the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, didn’t they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great impression upon you.

Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry——

Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he might have. My answer would have been——

Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that he had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas might make you a suspect of some sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help them in their investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the motivation for Jack’s doing what he did?

Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you had?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now, it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been thinking about this rather regularly since then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost forgot about it entirely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might have told you that Oswald had been at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the statement made and when you first remembered it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact that he had been in the club two or three times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from somebody telling you or from the newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been, after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald, somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard that he had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say, you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had heard it after he shot him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry, to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with me on that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the television or something like that. It was something about the statement where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t believe Jack did either or something of that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you heard this you made a comment?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?

Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your mind about the man?

Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack——

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out and kill.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a thing.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally, terribly emotionally, upset about the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning?

Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more grief stricken than any of the rest of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing his emotions?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to leave the club and not to come back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about whom he was annoyed or upset with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his sister Eva?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. Weinstein they got along fairly good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward, that he would only display this in the presence of that person in solving some problem with the individual face to face?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the exact time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the courthouse in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or that it was believed that he had?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had been told that Oswald had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it. Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Jot it down....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Do it....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The third?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Tear it out....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Live notes only.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on the front cover?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize any of them.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard mention of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort of performed the job you did before you came?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the time——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?