Chapter XXXV: Part 35

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power.

Mr. BURLESON. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any announcements as to whether he was the attorney?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the 10 days.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter?

Mrs. GRANT. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that week?

Mr. BURLESON. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help you a little bit, about Monday.

Mrs. GRANT. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these contracts have a——

Mr. BURLESON. You had not signed a contract?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. Anyway, he went and visited Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with him and our civil attorney, Stanley Marcus——

Mr. BURLESON. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said “This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio, and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of you getting into this widespread publicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr. Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and I was sick. He didn’t show up.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning?

Mrs. GRANT. He did.

Mr. BURLESON. Monday morning?

Mrs. GRANT. At 9:30.

Mr. BURLESON. Where?

Mrs. GRANT. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you come down?

Mrs. GRANT. I came down.

Mr. BURLESON. With whom?

Mrs. GRANT. With my sister Eileen.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you meet him?

Mrs. GRANT. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr. Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea, and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you at any time see him personally?

Mrs. GRANT. I never met him personally.

Mr. BURLESON. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do with it since?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did.

Mr. BURLESON. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr. Hubert Smith?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Employing him as chief counsel?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes—as chief counsel.

Mr. BURLESON. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.

Mr. BURLESON. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and he is in the background.

Mr. BURLESON. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity?

Mrs. GRANT. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past?

Mrs. GRANT. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him.

Mr. BURLESON. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did.

Mr. BURLESON. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now?

Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows.

Mr. BURLESON. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he can?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know, recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have talked about.

Mrs. GRANT. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind.

Mr. BURLESON. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received large sums?

Mrs. GRANT. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a thousand dollars—I may be wrong.

Mr. BURLESON. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard rumors similar to that?

Mrs. GRANT. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we haven’t received it.

Mr. BURLESON. You know nothing about any such large sum?

Mrs. GRANT. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.)

Mr. HUBERT. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”.

Mrs. GRANT. Oh. I’m sorry; no.

Mr. BURLESON. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small amount you have told us about?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And you know of no organization that has given any sum?

Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you.

Mr. BURLESON. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money?

Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were 14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of money.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an academy institute of law and science.

Mr. BURLESON. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith?

Mrs. GRANT. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked on it yet.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900?

Mrs. GRANT. At the most—that’s right.

Mr. BURLESON. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t pay you?

Mr. BURLESON. Right.

Mrs. GRANT. As he told me.

Mr. BURLESON. Right.

Mrs. GRANT. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he didn’t pay you at that time.

Mr. BURLESON. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal and things of that nature—right?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point. Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that you want to clarify further——

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I want to clarify——

Mr. BURLESON. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would like to state at this time?

Mrs. GRANT. We have never received money from any unethical organization, labor work, gratis, friends, or relatives such as gangsters or unions or Jack has gotten one dime out of anybody of that kind, or racketeer money, bookies or any type of, you know, discriminating businesses of any kind. I know his finances, I know where he has gotten 99 percent of his money and that is from members of the family. In fact, they can ask Marian and Earl a good deal about that.

I also know the night of November 22 when Jack was with me the evening before—7:15—during that short time he was with me and they were talking about Oswald, I had made the statement and this is what I said. “Don’t worry,” and I told it to the FBI and I didn’t see it in the report.

Mr. BURLESON. “Don’t worry”—what?

Mrs. GRANT. “That lousy Communist”—I’m referring to, and I mean, I assumed this myself.

Mr. BURLESON. And you said it in Jack’s presence?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. “Don’t worry, that some lousy Communist will get him before anybody else does.”

Mr. BURLESON. The Communist will get him before anybody else?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s just what I said and I did not see it in this report—I don’t think I saw it. I did say it because I already talked to four or five people on the phone and I’m going to tell you why I said that—everyone on television and it seems it was Curry, which is our chief of police—says he’s someone that’s come out with three draft cards, he has been in Cuba and he defected to Russia and I think my mind is like 40 million other grownups, decided that he was a Communist sent here for this kind of a thing and the people that I knew that I speak to on the phone at that time or had been friends with all felt the same way or talked about it in that way. He couldn’t help but think that. It’s because what television has presented to the public, and then this thing in the paper and this was only Friday evening, and I have made that remark—I made it not only to him, to Pauline Hall, and to Madeline Blainey and to Emma and to Leo and whoever called I kept talking about that and made that remark, and I made it not only to him but to these others, and I kept talking about it because I was imbedded with that in my mind from television. They kept talking about it—they indicated he had three draft cards, he went to Russia and they threw him out and they planted him here and he went to Cuba and he had money and he was going to hire a plane.

Mr. BURLESON. Okay—anything else you want to go into this to clarify this?

Mrs. GRANT. Jack has always been a fighter for the Jews. Any—in the Army, if they look back, he didn’t mind—if you fought and if you cussed and they said words like sheeny or kike or Jew—he belted it out to them. I know my brother Jack. He told me of different incidents. One of the things that he loved about this President—he didn’t care what you were, you were a human being and Jack felt that this was one time in history that Jews are getting the break. He put in great Jewish men in office, they were fit to hold the office, and, of course, we are not Catholics and we never discuss religion in that effect, but my brother had such a great admiration for this man. It’s unbelievable.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. The truth is this—here recently with his head out—he said he did it for Jackie and the kids, but I think he’s just looking for a reason.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the first few days?

Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t talk—for 10 days he never mentioned it and I never mentioned it, but in this white overall he had a little picture and on one side is the late President’s picture in color. It is the most beautiful picture of him that I have seen. On the other side is a prayer of the Catholics. I have never seen my brother carry anything like that. He is definitely a good Jew no matter what people think. He had kissed the President’s picture in front of me—right in front of me like a baby, and he held that card prayer and his lawyers have seen him, and I don’t know what denomination they all are—we don’t go that way. He just held that card there, there’s a little pocket in there—all he knows—let me put it this way—it maybe was in back of his mind something that I don’t know or nobody knows, but he loved the President, but he had no idea of doing this. In the first place——

Mr. HUBERT. It wouldn’t do any good, I don’t believe, for you to give your opinions.

Mrs. GRANT. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. If you know from what he told you, that’s another matter, but you say he has not told you that?

Mrs. GRANT. This was a shock out of my wits.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—he didn’t tell you that, then?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. Now, something we haven’t gone into and might be relevant to this—Jack had a great acquaintance with the police, didn’t he?

Mrs. GRANT. Far greater than the average citizen of this city, unless they were a wife of a man.

Mr. BURLESON. Could you tell us what Jack’s attitude was toward the police?

Mrs. GRANT. They were very friendly, he admired them, he thought they were good people. On many occasions some policeman would have a night off and he would want to take his wife out on his anniversary and it’s in between paydays, Jack would let him have $10 and he would say, “I’ll write a check” and so Jack didn’t want to take the check and sometimes he would hold it 6 years and this check was still in there which they can see among his possessions. He admired the police department. He was very close. In fact, he entertained them in the club on their nights off and I’m positive some have been out to his apartment.

Mr. BURLESON. Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. GRANT. He said he knew a Tippit but it’s like me—there was a Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, there is a Tipton and a Tipin.

Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack, during the period November 22 through the last time you talked to him on the 23d or the 24th of November, say anything to you about the fact that Officer Tippit was killed?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; on Saturday evening, during this 4-hour period I was very sick and I, of course—I was physically sick besides mentally sick now over the assassination of the President, and we talked about the Governor being shot and different things and he says, “You think you will be all right to go to the funeral,” but I was so sick.

Mr. BURLESON. Did he say what funeral?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he meant the policeman’s funeral—Tippit’s. Of course, a lot of people don’t know—he went to all of the policemen’s funerals and, of course, there has been a few funerals—if it was a member of their families and if he knew the fellows he would go. He was that kind. He tried to pay his respects to people.

Mr. BURLESON. But he did have a conversation about Tippit?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. What did he say about Tippit being killed?

Mrs. GRANT. He said, “You think you will be all right”—and this was Saturday, and I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Well, do you think you will be all right?” And I hollered back like—I said, “Yes—yes,” and not to bother me. I was too sick—I didn’t even want to think of it, but I’ll be honest, all the time he’s talking to me I had it in my mind—“I’m not going, I’m too sick and I know I ain’t going to feel good Monday,” see.

Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he told you he had planned to go to Tippit’s funeral on Monday?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—no; he didn’t say “Monday”, he did not say Monday—he didn’t say the date.

Mr. BURLESON. Whenever it was?

Mrs. GRANT. He said to the funeral.

Mr. BURLESON. Tippit’s funeral?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he says—he saw I was sick and he figured maybe I don’t want to get out and he says, “Do you think you can go to dinner tomorrow?” And he does take me to dinner.

Mr. BURLESON. But anyway, he had made arrangements or was telling you that he and you were going to the funeral of Tippit, is that right?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s correct—that’s what he thought.

Mr. BURLESON. But you didn’t feel up to it physically?

Mrs. GRANT. That Saturday I couldn’t see myself going, I’ll tell you, I just wanted to quiet him down.

Mr. BURLESON. And as far as you know. Jack did not know Tippit?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t—I don’t know, all I could tell you is that Jack lived in Oak Cliff for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known of him slightly. He didn’t know him as well as other policemen that I know he knows. I know of policemen much closer than him, but since this all happened, one of my coworkers, Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and Tippit was in our club sometime—a month previous to this—previous to his killing.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a picture of Tippit?

Mrs. GRANT. It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, “Do you remember he talked to you up at the front, he was in in September or October or November sometime.”

Mr. BURLESON. Was that the Carousel or the Vegas?

Mrs. GRANT. The Vegas, and while I looked at him then I remembered that he looked familiar, but truthfully, you know, after the President’s assassination and this incident of my brother I didn’t see any newspaper. I didn’t look for anything to read. I had no television or radio on—I couldn’t take it.

Mr. BURLESON. Mr. Hubert, I think that is all I have along that line.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant, earlier today, as a matter of fact, at the very beginning or prior to the beginning of the deposition, I showed you a list of names and telephone numbers and addresses on a document consisting of 37 pages, marked with a large “E”, and asked you to go through that list and make a check mark as to every name and number that had any significance to you at all.

Now, you have done so and I am going to ask, if I may, with the consent of your attorney, that I now read off that list of names as to those names that you have checked off, and I am going to request the reporter to make a special list of those that you have checked off and hand it to you so that you may make comments of your own, and then after consultation with your attorney, draft up an affidavit as to what comments you have to make with respect to each one of these people. In other words, you have indicated that the names that have been checked off have a significance to you.

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to prepare notes and with the assistance of your attorney, draft an affidavit as to what significance each one of these names has. I understand that it will be perhaps a matter of 2 weeks or so before you can get that because there are quite a number of names.

Now, I will read those names so that the record will show which of the names you have marked off. I understand that as to those you have not marked off, those names have no significance to you; is that correct?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—I can’t relate them to anything.

Mr. BURLESON. May I make a suggestion—it may be a little time consuming, but if she could look back through that now that she has had an opportunity to testify and recall many, many things that she probably hasn’t thought of in some time—she could very quickly look at the ones she didn’t check?

Mrs. GRANT. Is it possible that some of those are license plate numbers—could you tell?

Mr. HUBERT. They seem to be mostly telephone numbers.

Mr. BURLESON. Yes; ma’am—that’s right.

Mrs. GRANT. May I explain something to you?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; please.

Mrs. GRANT. All right. Jack would be driving along in his car and there would be a young lady drive up to the right of him. If she didn’t have a marriage ring and she looked cute and he thought she might like to see a little night life he would let her pass—he would look at her license number and copy the number and find out in the city hall where to send her—her name and address and the telephone—a complimentary card to come to the Vegas Club—he as a host.

Now, I told this to Payton and the other people and he would send these people cards because girls would come to the club and ask me, “Where is Mr. Ruby?” And I would say, “He’s not here.” And they said, “Well, he sent me this complimentary card.” Once I said something to him about it and he said “Oh, I sent this to a girl,” and I never thought anything about it. Finally, when he was arrested and I knew they found a lot of numbers, I said to him, “What are these numbers for?” And he said, “You know they are license plate numbers.”

Mr. HUBERT. I see your point—it might be better if we gave her the whole list.

Mrs. GRANT. I’m not going to steal it.

Mr. HUBERT. I can’t give you this list but I can get these names run off.

Mr. BURLESON. Suppose we do it that way and it may be that in time she can reflect better.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it that way, then, and instead of doing it the way we have agreed, I will supply you with a list of all of these names and ask that you look at all of them and possibly you will see some that you have overlooked?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—there may be one or two that I have overlooked.

Mr. HUBERT. And I will ask you, then, to give us an affidavit as to the significance of any of these.

Mrs. GRANT. I will be happy to.

Mr. HUBERT. I would ask that you give us the affidavit only upon your own knowledge.

Mr. BURLESON. Not as to what she has heard?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if she indicates it is what she knows from her own knowledge as apart from what she has heard.

Mrs. GRANT. These are mostly strippers and waitresses that I know or have known, or comedians. Listen, what happened to the two boxes of names and addresses that they took out?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am. It may well be that these are they.

Mrs. GRANT. That isn’t enough.

Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness as to the names shown on the list heretofore referred to.)

Mr. BURLESON. May I ask you—do you want this in one single affidavit, paragraph by paragraph?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so. I think that the affidavit could be in the usual form.

Mr. BURLESON. What I am asking is, do you want a single affidavit as to each one of the names here?

Mr. HUBERT. I think not, I think the usual affidavit form—one that says that—having been handed a list and so forth, that she has the following comment to make on each and then in numerical sequence, and as to the rest of them there is no significance.

Mr. BURLESON. And one notary signature will be sufficient?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. And then there will be just one instrument?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. GRANT. I do want to say this: Do you know Jack in his early teens and in the early thirties—he and these bad boys he later on disassociated himself with, they were people in the neighborhood—broke up Bund meetings in Chicago—do you know Chicago at all?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. BURLESON. For the record, I have no other questions to ask.

Mr. HUBERT. I haven’t either. Thank you very much.

Mrs. GRANT. All right.

TESTIMONY OF SAM RUBY

The testimony of Sam Ruby was taken at 10:55 a.m., on May 29, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Ruby was accompanied by his attorney, Phil Burleson.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sam Ruby.

Mr. Ruby, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and of the life of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Ruby, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day that you did receive it.

Mr. RUBY. I believe it was Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish and testify right now. Do you wish to do so?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do—I wish to testify.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like the record to show also that Mr. Phil Burleson, attorney at law, is present and representing Mr. Sam Ruby; is that correct?

Mr. BURLESON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and take the oath, please? And raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. RUBY. Samuel David Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you. Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. 51.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. RUBY. At 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. RUBY. I am a washing machine repairman at washaterias.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, you have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI on four different occasions and I would like you to tell me about those. In order that we may proceed in that way, I wish to identify an interview of you on November 24, 1963, by FBI Agents Sayres [spelling] S-a-y-r-e-s, and Eckenrode. That interview consists of six pages—on the first page I have marked on the right margin the following: “Dallas, Texas, May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have placed my name beneath that and on the right-hand lower corner of each of the succeeding five pages I have placed my initials for the purpose of identification.

Now, I ask you if you have had occasion to read this document which I have identified as Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to express your opinion as to the correctness of that report of the interview?

Mr. RUBY. They are correct as far as that is concerned.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any changes or any suggestions or modifications in any way that you wish to make with respect to that statement?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he has them.

Mr. BURLESON. On page 6; in previously going over this, Mr. Hubert, I think there are some things he would like to comment on and I will ask him about it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. BURLESON. On page 6, the first paragraph—there is a statement that “This man’s name was Leo, last name unknown. Jack fired this man because he said he was stealing from him.”

I’ll ask you whether or not you now have found out or since that time, have found out Leo’s last name?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out his name.

Mr. BURLESON. What is that?

Mr. RUBY. Torti [spelling] T-o-r-t-i; I believe is the way he spells it.

Mr. BURLESON. And as to the second statement there about Jack firing this man, do you now know that that was not the situation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes: I found out that he was not quite competent as Jack would have him and there were a few things that he didn’t take care of, in other words, when my brother told him to do it and he neglected to do a few things.

Mr. BURLESON. And that was the reason for the firing of Torti rather than stealing?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. BURLESON. And subject to that correction you told Mr. Hubert, everything else appeared to be correct, as I understand it now?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state that when you made the statement that you have just modified on page 6 of Exhibit No. 1 that you had the impression that the man had been fired because he had been stealing from Jack and that impression has been clarified since that; is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it clarified?

Mr. RUBY. Well, since talking to Jack and at the time—Jack mentioned a few things that—when I come to the club, which I did a few times to visit him and see the show and to watch the admission being taken and put in the register properly, and that gave me the impression that maybe he just wanted to see that maybe Leo didn’t forget to do those things.

Mr. HUBERT. You have since talked to your brother Jack and he has clarified this matter, so that you are now able to state that your present understanding is that it was not because of an allegation of stealing, but rather because he was incompetent; is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Right; and Jack’s idea about managing the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you another report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Alfred Sayres on November 27, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 29, 1963, Exhibit No. 2, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name and all of which appears in the right margin of this one page document and I ask you the same question with respect to that, that is, if it is correct?

Mr. RUBY. Which paragraph is that?

Mr. HUBERT. The entire document—I am speaking of the entire document—I think you have just read it.

Mr. BURLESON. That’s the one you said was all right.

Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). I think I recall when Jack was hospitalized, I think it was in Chicago.

Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me ask you a question—in regard to the second paragraph which says—“He said he knows of no time when Jack Ruby has ever been hospitalized for any reason.” Does something come to your mind in reference to the hospitalization of Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was struck in back of the head, I think he was scalping tickets at one of the sporting events—at football or one of those events in Chicago—and the police officer told him not to scalp, told him to leave the premises where the sporting event was being held, and Jack refused to do so, and anyway—I don’t know what the deal was, but Jack was hit on the back of the head with a club or something like that, and he had a big bandage on the back of his head, and he was hospitalized then, but I don’t remember what year it was—I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, with that amplification or correction of Exhibit No. 2, is the exhibit otherwise correct?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they tell me—I talked to the family and they say that my mother was hospitalized in Elgin.

Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me ask you—you are now referring to the third paragraph and a sentence in there that says, “This was the Dunning Hospital on Irving Boulevard in Chicago?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. BURLESON. You have subsequently found out that it may have been a different hospital?

Mr. RUBY. Right; after I talked to some members of the family and they say it was in Elgin, Ill., which is a mental hospital.

Mr. BURLESON. And are there any other corrections or additions you want to make to that statement?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I found out since, that my sister, Eileen, had somewhat of a nervous breakdown since she came here to visit during the trial.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are now referring to the last paragraph that says, “He knows of no other indications of any mental illnesses in his family.” What have you found out since you made that statement?

Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen was treated by a doctor during—following a nervous breakdown some years ago—we found out during the course of the trial when she was here.

Mr. BURLESON. Did you find out anything about Earl having any type of mental disorder, either in the service or subsequent thereto?

Mr. RUBY. Well, here it is.

Mr. BURLESON. You have that in there?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where your sister was hospitalized or treated?

Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen Kaminsky—no; I don’t, but she did mention she was having some difficulty.

Mr. HUBERT. But you got that information from her?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t know it at the time of the interview covered by Exhibit No. 2, to wit: November 27, 1963?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, this document is correct, that is Exhibit No. 2, is that right?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you Exhibit No. 3, which you have already read, and that Exhibit No. 3 is an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, having been dated November 29. I have marked it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, as Exhibit No. 3 to the deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name below it and I ask you if that document is correct?

Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). Well, the first paragraph there?

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—in reference to the first paragraph starting with “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex., advised that he has no interest financial or administrative in the S & R Corp. He further advised that he has no interest financial or administrative in the Carousel Club or in the Club Vegas in Dallas, Tex., which clubs are operated by his brother, Jack Ruby. He further advised that he is not aware that his name has ever appeared on any document as an officer in the S & R Corp., or in any way in the operation of the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas.”

Have you, since you made that statement back on the 29th of November 1963, been informed of some facts that are contrary to what you stated at that time, and do you wish to explain to Mr. Hubert what that is?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out from Ralph Paul, who was also a stockholder, that I was a member of the corporation and that I was issued shares of stock in the S & R Corp., but I have never seen them, I have never received them or have never seen any of the corporation papers, so I am just taking his word for it, and I still don’t know, but they say it and also in the Vegas Club, I hold a chattel mortgage on that, which has not fully been paid off. I don’t know whether you would consider that a financial interest in that or not. Jack never paid me off the full amount.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that have to do with reference to a loan that had been made by you to him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And at an earlier date upon which you got a judgment in your favor?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will touch upon that a little later, and I think that will be clarified. It is a fact, I take it, until you were advised by Mr. Paul that your name appeared on the corporate papers, you didn’t know anything about it until then?

Mr. RUBY. No; this last, this third paragraph, I think I found out from my brother Earl.

Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me make reference to a particular sentence in there. In the third paragraph of the statement, “He further advised that sometime during the fall or early winter of 1960, his sister, Marion Caroll, visited in Dallas and while here loaned Jack Ruby a fairly large sum of money. He said she later regretted making this loan and his brother Earl came to Dallas sometime in the spring of 1961 for the purpose of recovering the amount of this loan for Marion. He said he does not know if Earl was successful in this attempt or if Earl paid Marion the amount of the loan and thereby became a creditor of Jack Ruby.”

What have you found out since making that statement that might make some difference?

Mr. RUBY. Well, part of that I believe is true—Earl did come down here to try to get some of that money back, but I also found out that he let Jack have some money of his own because Jack was having some financial difficulties with the Carousel Club. It was changed then and I think it was the Sovereign Club or the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you find that out from?

Mr. RUBY. From Earl.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how much?

Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t say—he may have said, but I don’t recall, but I know he says he let him have some money.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other changes or corrections to Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. RUBY. No; if he has an interest—I don’t know whether he has an interest—if it’s in writing—he may have.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—are you referring to the fourth paragraph that says, “He says he does not know whether or not Earl Ruby has a financial interest in the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas at Dallas, but if he does have, this interest may have arisen out of the above-mentioned loan.”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s right—that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is correct, but I don’t know about it.

Mr. BURLESON. That’s what you have heard?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that all as to Exhibit No. 3, then?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right—well, now——

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—you are now referring to the last paragraph. “He concluded by stating that he has no knowledge of the financial or corporate structures of the S & R Corporation or of the Carousel Club or Club Vegas in Dallas, Tex.” Do you want to change that in the light of what you have heard since that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way—when that statement was given, that was true, you did not have that knowledge?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What you want to say now is that you have found out something since?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it is?

Mr. RUBY. I found out that a certain amount of shares were issued to me in the S & R Corp. and that I was a vice president in the corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not know that at the time you made this statement?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you find out those facts from?

Mr. RUBY. From Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is the only source of your information, is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen the shares?

Mr. RUBY. No; I never have seen them.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any of the books or papers of the corporation that would indicate it?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But your sole source of information as to your present statement is the information obtained from Ralph Paul?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any other inquiry about the matter?

Mr. RUBY. Well, we tried looking through the Carousel Club files up there—they had these metal files. We went through those and we couldn’t find any papers, any corporation papers and no one of the attorneys seemed to have them at the time and Stanley Kaufman, who was a personal friend of his, and he is an attorney here in town, he didn’t have them and he didn’t know where they were, and we couldn’t locate them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you invest any money for the purchase of the shares of stock which apparently might have been issued to you?

Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t invest any. Jack may have transferred some of the money that he owed me as a financial transaction.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that he owed you some money and he may have issued the stock to you?

Mr. RUBY. To cover that.

Mr. HUBERT. As a way of paying the loan?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he didn’t tell you he was doing so?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any further comments as to Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, FBI agent, on December 5, 1963, and for the purpose of identification I have marked that document, “Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name below that, and it consists of one page, and I ask you the same question with respect to that document?

Mr. RUBY. Well, this first paragraph—I found out that he had—that he did make a trip to Cuba.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are referring to the first paragraph which starts off: “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex., advised telephonically that he knows of no trip to Cuba made by Jack Ruby at any time. It was explained to Mr. Ruby that if such a trip were made it had been alleged Jack Ruby made the trip with a gambler from Fort Worth, Texas. He suggested that such a person may have been a man by the name of McWillie whom he has heard mentioned as a gambler and a friend of Jack Ruby.” What do you now know in reference to that, that you have found out since that time?

Mr. RUBY. Well, from Jack himself—this was in the Dallas County Courthouse in jail, that Mr. McWillie sent him the airplane tickets for him to go to Cuba and to be his guest while he was there.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you get that information from Jack Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—sometime ago—I believe it was during the trial—during the course of the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. You visited him at the Dallas County Jail, is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And during the course of that conversation he told you that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him about it or did he volunteer the information?

Mr. RUBY. I asked him about it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that was during the trial but before the verdict?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the trial—do you remember?

Mr. RUBY. It was more or less during the beginning of it—most likely.

Mr. HUBERT. In February?

Mr. RUBY. Probably was.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say about Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. RUBY. Everything is all right on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that your name and Jack’s—the family name was Rubenstein.

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you changed your name to Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that change made?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was by a regular court proceeding in the courts of Illinois?

Mr. RUBY. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you know that Jack had also changed his name?

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know definitely whether he changed it legally.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that your brother Earl had changed his name?

Mr. RUBY. We changed ours at the same time. We were in business together.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to ask you is whether or not the change of name of you and Earl and Jack was by a common understanding, that you all would change your name?

Mr. RUBY. No; just Earl and I had a common understanding. We were in business together at the same time and we used the same attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. What business was that that you were in?

Mr. RUBY. We were in the advertising specialty manufacturing business.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?

Mr. RUBY. Earl Products Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a corporation?

Mr. RUBY. No; just a company.

Mr. HUBERT. A trade name?

Mr. RUBY. A trade name.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack in that company?

Mr. RUBY. He was. He was in the company for about 2 years, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was during what years?

Mr. RUBY. 1946 and 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he come to leave it?

Mr. RUBY. We had a little difference as to the policies of the company and Earl and I more or less agreed on the way it should be run and Jack had other ideas, and, of course, when we couldn’t agree, we bought him out.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay him?

Mr. RUBY. I believe it was about $14,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, was that paid in cash?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was cash.

Mr. HUBERT. After you bought him out and you paid him in cash, did he come to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say he came almost immediately?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; in fact I think he may have made some trips here before we sold out, before he sold out to us—I’m not sure about that, but it seems like he had come down here to visit my sister Eva—Eva L. Grant.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not when he got here he had approximately $14,000 in cash, that is to say, when he came to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way—you knew he had the $14,000—you don’t know whether he had any debts or anything that would have consumed that $14,000, is that what you are saying?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you move to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. In 1955—I moved here in July 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the occasion for your coming here?

Mr. RUBY. I sold out to my brother Earl in March of 1955 and at that time my youngest boy, Brion, had a little asthma difficulty and my sister Eva, who was residing in Chicago at the time, suggested that I come to Dallas and look into the building of homes in Dallas. She had some friends who were in the business of building homes, and I did build one residence in Oak Cliff, that is part of Dallas, in association with this lady friend of hers, and subsequently this woman I built the home with, she liked the home so well she bought it from me and I realized at the time that these building tradesmen here were kind of hard to get along with. In other words, they—some of them would drink on the job and material would be missing from the job and I thought I would rather get into something else that I was more familiar with.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, then, after you sold your interest to Earl, you made the decision to move to Dallas on a permanent basis?

Mr. RUBY. I came down here for a visit first.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you decide to make this your home—to make Dallas your home?

Mr. RUBY. After I sold out the company to Earl in March, I came down here in April.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you considered to be your permanent move to Dallas—in April?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I came down here for a visit and I decided I liked Dallas very much and I went back up north and, of course, at that time I was in the business of building this home and I told my wife—I called her on the phone and told her that we are going to move to Dallas and I went up there in the latter part of June and helped pack our furnishings and belongings and had them moved down here by truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You had already finished building the home here you were talking about?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was in the process of building it.

Mr. HUBERT. After you moved down here and that was in the summer of 1955, as I understand you, and after you had finished this building venture which you decided you didn’t want to continue in, what business did you go into by way of making a living?

Mr. RUBY. I went into—it was also the advertising specialty business—then with two fellows who were at that time engaged in it. They had a company under the trade name of Atlas American Specialties Co., I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the two men you are speaking of?

Mr. RUBY. One was Sam Lasser (spelling) L-a-s-s-e-r, and the other fellow was named Norman Weisbrod.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have covered those transactions in your statements.

Mr. RUBY. I believe I have—I don’t think they asked me those questions, although I did mention that they were friends of Jack’s.

Mr. HUBERT. But you actually were business partners with them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that last?

Mr. RUBY. That lasted until June 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the occasion of breaking that up, or what happened?