Chapter XXI: Part 21

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit 5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.

Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like that. This is terrible handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do you recognize the handwriting in that book?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it, and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have, I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St. Charles?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably, this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I think it is. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards.

Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of the twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he didn’t know anything about the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t think he did. Now, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman, which I mentioned before to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or Lena.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?

Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who that is. Earl Products.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned Stanley Kaufman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex. Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is——

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know who that is. Now, see, he is known by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything else, as Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did you know Buddy Heard?

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say “no” to my question about Jack maintaining a relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those?

Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because page 5 doesn’t have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that we haven’t already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name “Jerry Lindsay”. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or did some work for him, or something, but I don’t recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody named Leo?

Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and, of course, he was a salesman in the daytime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work?

Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime?

Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store?

Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don’t know which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him, at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there?

Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-l.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of those names?

Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before, the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can.

Mr. SENATOR. What does the top one say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall.

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E. J. Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. What is this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers?

Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. McKinney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9. Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won’t direct your attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page 12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don’t know what capacity Tex Lacy is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did you know Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his band at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band?

Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician?

Mr. SENATOR. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up any new night club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That I didn’t know. Possibly he may have been looking for a partner. I don’t know, or how or what I don’t know. You’ve got me there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I won’t mention the back of page 14 because there is nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him?

Mr. SENATOR. The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge?

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton.

Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don’t know, because this is a telephone number, I assume, isn’t it, but there is no prefix to it. Maybe this is it now. I don’t even know if that is him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign, “Impeach Earl Warren” sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I didn’t see him write anything down. I can’t quote if he did or didn’t, but I didn’t see him. I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him?

Mr. SENATOR. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I really don’t know. I just don’t refresh my mind if he did have any newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack’s car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been under at the outset.

Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some other names.

Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of pushups from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells?

Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am not sure. Barbells, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting goods, then it——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man?

Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well, it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t living with Jack then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were.

Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him. When you mentioned—was it November?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because——

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him——

Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the latter part of the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out and had a bite to eat, and that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black, brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name.

Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck driver?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. A truck driver?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a dog to in California?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him. Is it McWillie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.

Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know him. Never met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of course, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail presently, in the penitentiary?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down there. Now who the man is, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t even know the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio program.

Mr. SENATOR. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put out by H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any political organizations?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in some public issue, or something.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. What was what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from Jack’s home?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I didn’t.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November 22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. On November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say “No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard called that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t remember on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no longer in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?

Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?” He said he had left Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that?

Mr. SENATOR. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till, or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first time I ever knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at the trial, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry?

Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness bench one day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left?

Mr. SENATOR. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say that you left the house around noon on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have to do on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t work that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the groceries you bought?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not. I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an afternoon, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having spent some time at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was there, and that we went some other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before——

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you——

Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or 8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we went to this other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in the afternoon and the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or why he wanted to snap the pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and had coffee with him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out to see that Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a shaken-up day for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about that particular episode?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these things, why should they be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that——

Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I don’t know the answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the Southland Hotel to have coffee.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these had bypassed my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the newspaper ad, when they took my statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I guess it was on Monday——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that advertisement and about the sign?

Mr. SENATOR. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to know why somebody would want to impeach him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy of the trial was going to be?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, that this would be a justification?

Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the President was coming into town that day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what he was going to do with this information that he got?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches and things of that nature there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it was related to me, over the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t tell any of that to the——

Mr. SENATOR. To who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the 24th, did you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. See, you must understand——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, wouldn’t it shake a human being up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them everything you knew about what Jack had done.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty well shaken up at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might hurt him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also——

Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention——

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, being shook up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave the police department on the 24th——

Mr. SENATOR. Didn’t what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on the 24th.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t mention what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from Little Lynn.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in your own mind that those events which you omitted——

Mr. SENATOR. Was I trying to hide something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb to you.

Mr. SENATOR. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things that I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.

Mr. SENATOR. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the moment, when all these things were happening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on November 24, 1963.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.

Mr. SENATOR. That is, that is my signature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the statement you signed?

Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed by an agent of the FBI.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the Eatwell Restaurant.

Mr. SENATOR. Just as I walked in? No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. No; before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was before you learned that?

Mr. SENATOR. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, one of his little girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you learned that Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that is when I called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November 24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked in the door.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November 24?

Mr. SENATOR. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say it to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It was pretty loud.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a TV set on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her information through either the phone, or they may have had a little radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she was behind the counter, and I was sitting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the person who shot him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it.

This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.

I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it.

Mr. SENATOR. Shall I make little notations here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there some places you want to change?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you mark on it—why don’t you do this——

Mr. SENATOR. It will only be a dot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on it and then we can go back.

Mr. SENATOR. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point them out to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got some changes to make there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.

Mr. SENATOR. It says here, “He had only casual association with him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until approximately 3 years ago.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up until 2 years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or somewheres in there of 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word “three.”

Mr. SENATOR. On this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On that. And write “two.”

Mr. SENATOR. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And then initial it and date it.

Mr. SENATOR. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these lines. Shall I put my initial after it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t coincide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962 when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was down and out and I first started to work for him, and I was living with him. You see what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is March or April of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say either February, March, or April, something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him, because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever did in the past.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom you saw more frequently than Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything but that up until that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?

Mr. SENATOR. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all depends, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw on a social basis?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody has a favorite hangout.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that Burgundy Room was yours?

Mr. SENATOR. This is mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?

Mr. SENATOR. Ever since I came to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a place you would go almost every day?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say more so than any other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you go there almost every day?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not every day, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three times a week?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, transient or local, from 5 on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club would be to a wealthier man?

Mr. SENATOR. That is of that nature, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were certain other people who used to hang around there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. Jack is not a drinking man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and pastime——

Mr. SENATOR. Just as one of my hangouts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a few drinks?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not a man who spends his spare time——

Mr. SENATOR. Not particularly, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Playing golf or tennis?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook, this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you like to experiment with food?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in kitchens. I done this for a long time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you worked in a number of restaurants?

Mr. SENATOR. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?

Mr. SENATOR. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix things——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Salads?