Chapter X: Part 10

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--anything is just fine. I am willing to help in any way possible.

I wanted to state it clearly in the beginning.

I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York--on June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse. And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in Fort Worth, Tex.

So I was not able to leave and meet Lee.

Robert, his brother, met him, and Lee went to Robert's home.

Approximately about a week later--I could not stand it any more--I called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina.

Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't look Russian. She is beautiful."

He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks like an American girl."

I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social function, a community function.

I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready--I was getting ready to write a book on your so-called defection.

"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way, asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating circumstances at the time because of the defection."

He said, "Mother, you are not going to write a book."

I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now, because, Honey, you are alive and back."

But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or dead, and I planned to write the book.

"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and Marina. It is my life, because of your defection."

He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could kill her and her family."

That was in the presence of my son Robert Oswald and his wife.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about what date that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and--now, I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to Washington a few days.

But I have the letter stating that.

But I have no way of knowing.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that he came back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, approximately. That is correct.

So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home. I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there every day.

While I was there--Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, because of the cold weather in Texas.

So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions.

So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is Latin, of course, that is universal."

So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation while in the Soviet Union on his throat.

I am sorry--but all of the confusion of myself being there and the daughter-in-law, the Russian girl--that was never gone into. That is all I know.

But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert--that he had an operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say when that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that was all that was said.

As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion.

Now, I left, and I went back to Crowell on my job.

While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship, by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he would look for work.

But I want you to know that immediately Lee was out looking for work.

And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made the statement that he was writing a book.

You probably have that information. It was highly publicized.

I, myself, gave him the $10 that he gave the public stenographer.

I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have.

So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself, bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness, bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. What daughter-in-law was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. Is she married?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. She is a schoolteacher. She is single.

So that story there is incorrect.

So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with another child.

So Lee immediately began looking for work.

So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit. And Lee and Marina then came to live with me.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did they stay at Robert's?

Mrs. OSWALD. They stayed at Robert's approximately 2 or 3 weeks, sir.

So then they came to live with me.

While there, I said to Lee--I am ahead of my story.

Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts, from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that has a Russian Santa Claus on it.

I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know."

He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."

And that is all the information I ever got out of my son.

"Not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."

Mr. RANKIN. How did you get along when you were there together with Marina and your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever had. And Lee--I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia.

She knew--there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I know Gregory Peck."

And she was singing Santa Lucia.

And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English, she is singing Santa Lucia."

He said, "Mother, that is an international song."

Marina was very happy, and I was very happy to have the children.

And Lee desperately looked for work.

He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American citizen, that they would not be able to hire him.

He met obstacles all the way.

This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs. And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day.

And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort Worth, which is a sheetmetal place.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son, and the little baby----

Mrs. OSWALD. June.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Marina, and did she speak English to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would say--and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand.

She would say--I would say, "Marina, you now nurse your baby."

"Yes, Mama. The time."

Or "No time."

With motions--"no time. Mama."

She spoke English.

Mr. RANKIN. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning it?

Mrs. OSWALD. She was in the process of learning. But she understood more than she could talk.

And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and understands French, that she had learned at grammar school.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know French?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. So you could not tell?

Mrs. OSWALD. I could not tell.

And I didn't think a thing of it.

And, of course. Marina and Lee spoke Russian all the time, even in front of me.

And you asked about this time--it was a very happy time. They would sit at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it you are doing?"

Because they were always talking in Russian.

"Mother, we are playing a game which is similar to American tic-tac-toe."

And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both children--very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know about Russia, in my home.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie Manufacturing Co.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And then his first pay--he kept his first pay. And then the second pay, he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work.

Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to save money.

Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few little things that I could help out with.

But Lee did have the first week's pay.

And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was $59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a nice neighborhood, convenient to his work.

But then that leaves the boy broke.

I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in want. Marina nursed June.

Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no milk for the baby.

I say Marina nursed the baby.

They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in that respect.

They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave them one.

And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail.

And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this Russian girl--and within a short time, then, this Russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. And this all came out in the paper--that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things.

I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have been in that position.

So I think those things were immaterial.

The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should have more than necessary.

And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He was just starting to work.

This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have publicly stated--a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram--that has downed Lee for every way possible.

So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir, none at all.

Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son, and what I am saying about the playpen and so on.

Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there--they left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all these things were accumulated from Russian friends.

And no man likes other people giving--interfering in his way of living, and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. This is a human trait, I would say.

Now, I want to bring this story up.

I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making $25 a week, gentlemen--a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job.

Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I have worked for $5 a week, living in the place.

So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with.

So then that leaves me broke.

So I gave up a job in order to help this girl.

So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin--we had no quarrels. This month was beautiful. Marina was very happy.

I had the car and the television, and we went around.

As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take long walks.

If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used to walk there, and they came home--Marina came home with a Cancan petticoat and some hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that Robert and I had given him--he spent on his wife.

So that was a very happy time.

Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary. And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for $9 a day, 24 hours duty.

On an OB case--I am very busy with the baby all day long because people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10 o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately--then my day starts. I am stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63.

Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to understand.

So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina. I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair.

Mr. RANKIN. How did Marina treat you then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things that I bought her.

As you see, the way I am properly dressed--I don't say I mean to be the height of fashion, but I have--before becoming a nurse I was in the business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So I do know clothes.

And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently.

And I bought her a little longer shorts.

And "I no like, Mama."

I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to have a little longer shorts than the younger girls."

"No, Mama."

And I will stress this--that Marina was never too happy--"No, Mama, no nice, no, Mama, no this."

That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways. I didn't feel badly about it.

I am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my son.

I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time, June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up.

"We put baby on lap, Mama, and baby eat on lap."

And so a highchair to me, I think, was new to Marina.

So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me, "Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now--I want you to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which makes very good sense.

But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife that he himself could not buy.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I agreed with him. And I said--the shock of it--I realize what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. They would rather have their own way of doing things.

And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of his wife. So no more was said about it.

I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly object to it--they would rather do without, and have their wife do without, and they themselves be the master of the home.

So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was perfectly right.

I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care of me. So I agreed with that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no, Marina didn't know--unless she understood the English part. I have no way of knowing, you see.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. Tell us what happened after that, then.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, let me think just a minute.

This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have material things.

And all through my story, I can prove things that have happened of this nature.

Yes--I will continue.

I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on.

So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience, gentlemen, is what I am trying to say.

So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work clothes since he got this job.

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, what build is he?"

And I told her. And he was about the same build as her husband.

So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not buy--give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee.

Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is approximately the 6th or 7th of October.

Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went--this is very important, gentleman--I went to this home and I was there--I asked to get off an hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home, approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"--and I will have to say this--"or grandfather"--I do not know which--"is a Russian, from Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee."

So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation--now, this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The conversation was general.

And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and will offer you a job in Dallas."

I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give you a job."

So, gentlemen, this was on a Sunday.

I made coffee, and the house was in order. There was nothing packed.

Lee got paid on a Friday, from the Leslie Sheetmetal Works.

Monday Lee and Marina packed their belongings and went to Dallas.

The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts Graphic. I do not know--but you probably have that information. His very first job there.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was discharged by the Leslie people?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did not show up for work, because he came to Dallas.

The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed.

Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way I know this--I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone, because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were leaving.

I said to Veda. "Marina and Lee are no longer there, the house is vacant."

Mr. RANKIN. You spoke someone's name.

Mrs. OSWALD. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to move yesterday.

She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the refrigerator."

I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the couple being there.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name of that couple?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I have not been able to find out.

I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember. And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the couple. But I do not have that information.

Mr. RANKIN. And was he the owner of this business?

Mrs. OSWALD. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father was a Russian, or the grandfather--that owned this place of business.

Mr. RANKIN. I think you said the grandfather before.

Mrs. OSWALD. I said either the father or the grandfather. I cannot be sure.

It was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy.

So I told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it.

So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law as a witness.

It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people.

Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I had a day off, and Marina was not at home.

I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home." She didn't answer.

I said, "Marina, Mama come see you. You no home, Marina."

"No. I go to lady's house to take English lessons."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who she was speaking of?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know. And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my story, give you the facts.

I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons.

Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I am stating, several times. You have to understand--this is just 6 or 7 weeks that they are in this home.

Mr. RANKIN. You say "they." I am sorry to interrupt.

Mrs. OSWALD. Marina and Lee, in this home.

Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That worried me.

So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home with.

The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there.

By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being a stranger in town.

I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up.

Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward.

Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming--this is not a fact--that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had stayed in the car all day.

He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends."

"Would you like me to fix your supper?"

"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?"

So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still wasn't home.

I walked in the home with my son.

So approximately 2 days later--not approximately, but 2 days later I went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here."

Marina made no appearance.

So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye.

Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper ready.

That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what I am trying to bring out.

And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye, but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must consider the second aspect of the case.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she take the baby with her when you looked----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked.

"Mama--Lee." Just like that.

So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by striking Marina?"

He said, "Mother, that is our affair."

And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further.

Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I don't know.

But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we say in our American way of life.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time.

And then the children moved to Dallas.

Now, this will end that part of the story.

I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went to Russia--I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in 1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took courage to go and live where he wanted to live.

I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published in 1959--as far back as that.

So I will get back now to when the children left.

They did not tell me they had left.

So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he was in Dallas.

Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection.

I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen--I have lost jobs, I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and something political was on television, and the people commented, I felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were not needed.

I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from word of mouth.

But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you tried to locate her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no sir, that ended that.

So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact.

Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets stronger. I do accept things.

As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have that ability of doing that.

So I just accepted the fact--when Lee gets ready to let me know where he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he wants.

Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was before the time, sir--he lived--from my apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. What year was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was in 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean '62?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--1962. And that was the last I had seen of Marina and Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine.

When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will go about my own business.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I knew nothing, I had no contact with them.

So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas--the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Whatever you know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to 11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching--I am a little ahead of my story.

I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two before his arrival in Dallas."

And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession.

And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report to work.

So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a suspect.

I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the assassination. So they had Robert call me.

Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this the day of the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up.

Mr. RANKIN. And 3 to 11--that is in the afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had to be at work at 3 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back home.

I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up.

Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men to escort me to Dallas.

The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? Are those reporters?

Mrs. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor to escort me to Dallas.

Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask--I did not want to talk to the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story.

The policemen do not know I am here--"I want to talk to FBI agents."

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day is this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and there was another man that I do not know the name.

Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean their names were Brown?

Mrs. OSWALD. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, "I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't want this to get out."

But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from Washington."

"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington."

I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of protecting the President.

I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say to Washington men."

Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through Washington."

I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men."

So I had no choice.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am coming to this.

So I said, "I have information that"--I told him who I was.

I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet."

Of course that was news to them.

They left me sitting in the office.

And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this.

"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright."

And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in Washington.

Would you like those four names now?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of Soviet affairs.

One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names.

Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate.

So they left me.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say you understand that the State Department paid your son's way back from the Soviet Union----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that that was a loan?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the money to come back.

Mr. RANKIN. But you didn't know that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. But I stated--you see, I was worried about the security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out--how they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin.

I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I wanted the FBI, not the police, to know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, started to question me.

One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last time you were in touch with him?"

That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man.

I said, "I have not seen my son in a year."

He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother."

I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my son in a year."

And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that.

They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, and she started to question me.

I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, if you will relay--have these two Star Telegram men come in here, please. I would like to ask them something."

So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee."

Of course the men didn't answer.

But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, with this woman who came in and out.

I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information from me, you are not."

And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours.

Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to see Lee."

Mr. RANKIN. What office was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. The courthouse in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose office was it in? Do you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead--for instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the police and everybody was.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whose office it was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. And I never did get to see Lee.

So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you there when he was questioned?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service--never, gentlemen. If they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it.

So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."

And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?"

She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me.

She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to interfere."

And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very emotional.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the courthouse now, in the jailhouse.

So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her.

Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina gave--just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that the Dallas police has.

I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, whether it is the correct testimony.

So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter.

And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much as possible."

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to sleep on the sofa."

I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas."