Chapter XXXIII: Part 33

Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday, November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that were present at one time or another did anything other than to be extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of the Six Flags.

In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at all times.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is this another one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an interview.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night, November 27, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview.

However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area.

I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own personal welfare at this time.

And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald.

He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was quite late at night.

Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth.

Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again?

(The reporter read the question.)

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary?

That is, that she is not?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service, Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion?

Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information or any evidence we would like to have it.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely on his own without any assistance whatsoever.

Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like he had assistance of one nature or another, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I want you to answer his question fully.

Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency of the United States Government.

Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr. Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is concerning the same.

Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated.

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way involved with the assassination of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.

Does that answer the question?

Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey Oswald. Would you go that far?

Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion.

Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the Immigration and Naturalization.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have had some assistance.

Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used.

I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had reference to.

Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots?

Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own words.

Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him to state it again.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated.

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally.

Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit?

Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir, on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina----

Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that.

You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he did--roughly to that effect, I believe.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of help, where that could have come from, who was involved.

I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist plot, an anarchist plot?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how.

Mr. DULLES. And who.

Mr. JENNER. May have assisted.

Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion. And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or memorandum----

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."

I am still of that opinion, sir.

And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify them in any way.

Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions----

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed.

Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time.

I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like to add something to my previous statement there.

Mr. DULLES. Please, yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities, to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2 or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able to move about the Dallas police station very easily.

Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have read in the press subsequent to November 22?

Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried through from the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police department?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station.

Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination of the President.

Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your relationship with your brother.

Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he was only President for the last 3 years.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or con.

Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary of the Navy, and later Governor?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony.

Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would like to have that. And I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well.

Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally, but rather the contrary. I would like to get your impression of that, what he might have said to you on that subject.

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between myself and Lee Harvey Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he advised me that he had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John B. Connally, and that Mr. Connally, or his office had replied that he was no longer the Secretary of the Navy, and that he had turned over the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I believe.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr. Connally.

Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy?

Mr. JENNER. As a person?

Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about President Kennedy one way or the other?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed any views on Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall.

Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular leader or the government of the United States.

Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would.

Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he said in his letters?

I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not.

Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last question at the end.

Do you wish to follow up on any of these points?

Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment.

Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like to clear up.

Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant. Would you please locate those plants?

Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located approximately a mile apart, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you are employed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that come to your attention at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not.

Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became--you ever heard of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the fact whether he knew there was a committee.

Mr. JENNER. Both.

I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part.

Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas, Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an announcer--I assume a radio station announcer--called you. Did you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the area that you are referring to. The announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And what did the announcer say?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the United States on or about that approximate time.

Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character, or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the announcement on the radio at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when you heard that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat stunned.

Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not absorb it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity.

Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the moment--you retain a grip on yourself?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to.

Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you immediately called your wife Vada.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to television. In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to Lee by name.

Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told her you were going to come right home.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to your brother's arrest.

Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he had been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means?

Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother has been arrested."

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard."

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact words.

Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he wanted to state that, to complete his statement.

Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed?

Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted, but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe that to be 1220 Thomas Place.

Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did you say to her?

Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in contact with a Star Telegram reporter.

Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star Telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money to fly down immediately.

I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there.

I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the Baker Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station, on the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office, and a gentleman by the name of Reger.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I read your writing correctly. Bill----

Mr. OSWALD. Darwin.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in your notes?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those gentlemen?

Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the office.

And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to me or to locate me.

Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon completion of our conversation.

Mr. JENNER. And you did so?

Mr. OSWALD. I did so.

Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that----

Mr. DULLES. By telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at the time you were being interviewed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those you have now mentioned?

Up to this point of the sequence of events?

Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in Denton, Tex., sir.

Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that were made.

Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Fine.

Mr Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one, I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience.

Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time.

If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think that it would be better if I were to come back.

We will recess at this time until 2 p.m.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow workers.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please?

Mr. OSWALD. If I might----

Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?

Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was phrased?

Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.

Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen?

Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas division plant manager.

Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co.

And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new Denton plants.

Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, either all or some of you gentlemen.

Whose automobile was that?

Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. Burnett Henry's automobile.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. JENNER. And listening to it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.

You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina.

Is that correct?

In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her?

Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her.

Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that her second child had been born to her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been.

Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the child Rachel had been born?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an interpreter.

Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.

Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?

Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not.

Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and Marina and between her and others in the party?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of statement to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for us?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.

Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or conference with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference?

Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.

Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant Cummings.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas police force?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had actually been arrested in connection with that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, and possibly the President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request?

First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that day or evening?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that request?

Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his response?

Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me later.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later?

Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that day--of your request to see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way?

Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And you eventually left the police station, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas police office?

Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you retired for the evening.

Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.

Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at night, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you were going?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any with you, with respect to where you might or could go?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80.

Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my thoughts at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears."

Do you find that expression on page 7?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears"?

Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of Governor Connally, of Texas.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile.

Did you actually reach Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do?

Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight or something of that character?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did you go?

Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number?

I notice you mentioned a Highway 80.

Is that the same as the turnpike?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway.

Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road.

Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you were attempting to rearrange your thoughts.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register anywhere?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody.

Mr. JENNER. Who was that?

Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I stopped to buy gas.

Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir.

Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did you go somewhere?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down the street, to the Dallas police station again.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You went across the street to the Dallas City police station?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that visit?

Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a small office.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, did they?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, and belief, at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed to you? What were your thoughts?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just shook my head.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it.

Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on your part that you wished to see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you do that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And retired?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under my regular name at the Statler Hilton.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it was so.

On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. Isn't that correct, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in that conversation, and you merely listened.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or been accused of.

Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a fair and impartial trial?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you were then in the district attorney's office?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie?

Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too informative." Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring to--if I may elaborate on that.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate.

Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side."

Mr. JENNER. Either side of what?

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and my side as the other side.

Mr. JENNER. On what issue?