Chapter XXIV: Part 24

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give it to the U.S. Secret Service.

Representative FORD. What did she say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked off.

Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not.

Mr. DULLES. She had not.

Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your mother, I gather, while you were growing up.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when you were younger to get along with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and your brother, John?

Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her more than I or my older brother John could.

Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5?

Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Representative BOGGS. What did he do?

Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.

Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal life at the time of his death?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well normally?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this arguing other than it was just loud.

Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.

Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. He has been on for 2 hours.

Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?

Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for his cooperation.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?

Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from the House if we have any call or a vote.

Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be agreeable.

(Short recess.)

Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few questions.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mr. DULLES. Okay.

Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse reaction to it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in the status of that discharge?

Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that?

Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was all that was said between Lee and I about it.

Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his discharge?

Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.

Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this situation?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the board reached a final decision.

Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back from Washington.

Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her return from Washington?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.

Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?

Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw numbers of people, different people.

Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have from Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently.

Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me?

Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters.

Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be submitted for the record.

Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to come back?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.

Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with his wife and the baby.

Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and assistance in repaying the loan?

Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, used to get to Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry about that, but just to take his time.

Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?

Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.

Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.

Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying Russian or had become articulate in Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any type of foreign language.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the letter to which you now have reference.

Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our copies?

Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the telegram is June 14, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.

(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness the originals?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?

Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone call through your wife on June 14, 19----

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13.

Mr. JENNER. 13?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is June 14.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on June 13, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, is what?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York Welfare Center?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, 1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and Marina might expect to be in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually received that document which is now before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. June 14.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the document so marked and identified.

Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is that 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959.

Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?

Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, please?

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by Representative Ford.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the original?

Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?

Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper lefthand corner of the original.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due course?

Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in responding to Representative Ford's questions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the bottom of the second page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the original?

Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make out.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your attention immediately.

Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this?

Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his voice a little bit?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter.

"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:

"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to comprehend my reasons.

"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet Union and I will never leave.

"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room 233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know exactly.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a moment here.

Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. That was earlier.

Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.

Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. October 13.

Mr. DULLES. October 13.

Mr. OSWALD. 1959.

Mr. DULLES. And this was----

Mr. JENNER. November 8.

Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks.

Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on Halloween Day 1959, October 31.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had previously sent him.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, stimulation?

Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Who notified you?

Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of information--that they could relay to us when they received anything about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them.

After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee.

I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and one to your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these telegrams from Western Union.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.

Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western Union?

Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means available.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir.

And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?

Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 Davenport."

Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he would know that I did send the telegram.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the telegrams.

Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 294?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?

Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.

Mr. DULLES. Accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original having been produced before the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the telegram and his reaction to it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November 8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you attempted to reach him by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, November 1, 1959. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. At that time?

Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you send him any money?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to come back I would gladly send it.

Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to him.

Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, he always threw them away."

Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the letter.

Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November 8?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I had to say to the members of the press at that time.

Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1, 1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your brother John ever called him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, sir, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he actually went over there.

Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to reach him or she did reach him by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he hung up.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter.

Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it tomorrow.

Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.

Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with you gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.

Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.

Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, and so on, if you could bring that out.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty he just left left that out.

Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your specialty.

Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe that I received in the Marine Corps.

I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit Citations, and such.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.

I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.

Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who was present and what was said?

Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my home in Denton, Tex.

I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on the other end, at my mother's home.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. It was your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be able to concretely establish that with the officials.

Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the occasion in the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely than that it followed the other?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of December 9, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?

Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap gun other than with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.

Mr. JENNER. He was what?

Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.

Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he had it in his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?

Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.

Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?

Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how?

Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.

Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?

Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he place the butt of the gun?

Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder.

Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull the trigger and discharge the gun?

Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 caliber gun on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?

Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?

Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.

The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.

Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.

Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle----

Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you did not accompany him?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from him.

Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the letter, apart from the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he was able to----

Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.

Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?

Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to have, the shotgun.

Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that would be June-July of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is.

Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time with a guarantee from you.

What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which was----

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?

Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. And at his request----

Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me.

Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of employment in Fort Worth at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said.

Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West 7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was charging.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of what--the use to which he intended to put his credit?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a baby chair and a baby bed.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his purchase or acquisition of a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes Street, is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not a television set that I remember.

Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in those premises a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house.

Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your mother.

Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this television set matter?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had quite an ordeal for the day.

Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable.

Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing.

Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can reconvene then.

Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in the morning.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Friday, February 21, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles, member.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today. And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will now proceed with the testimony.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at home. You recall that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the last time you saw him during that 3-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he was approximately 5 foot 9-1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape at that time.

Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it a little longer period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days, and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the day at our house.

Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, bright and alert mentally at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head of hair was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with him as his brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the date, please, as closely as you can.

Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field.

Mr. JENNER. Now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July 1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had seen him, in 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to Russia.