Chapter XXV: Part 25

Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September.

Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly.

Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the texture of his head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did.

Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in your family?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on either side, to the extent that you have met those people.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness.

Mr. JENNER. And you have none?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even now?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been when you had seen him in September of 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return, June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of yellow.

Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his demeanor.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that time. I would say probably 5 pounds--approximately 5 pounds less than what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his appearance in 1959--facially?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other differences, if there were any, in demeanor?

Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance.

As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, June of 1962, I noticed no difference.

He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, that this was the reason for the accent.

Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair--I did, either on the first or second night, when he was there at the house--I pointed it out to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just right down to his scalp.

And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected his hair, the cold weather.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field, and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper reporters around. He did comment on this.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something, "What, no photographers or anything?"

I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet."

Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made?

Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into town?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my home.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia that affected his mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed an opinion in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his return from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now expressed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday, November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963, I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute, please.

Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of the USSR?

Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate.

Mr. JENNER. I am.

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?

Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time?

Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether or not he had been ill while in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say?

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please?

Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations.

Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could possibly refer to my diary.

I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in reference to----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document.

Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first three words and the last three words of the page to which you are making reference?

Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"----

Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion----

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second.

For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and Mr. Jenner has it in front of him.

Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover another subject while you are still here.

Proceed, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident. I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the entire day.

At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two occasions, been in the hospital in Russia.

I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more specific than that in relation to the illness.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?

Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't indicate where he was at the time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. DULLES. She did not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have indicated with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of that nature, that we could discuss it more fully.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness feature at a later point.

You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your conversation on the subject of illness with Marina.

Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular date, and will wish to question the witness about it.

"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the cemetery."

Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the letters "NMR" refer to?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there. There are five dashes there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. And the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in reverse.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there as a substitute for the word "shoot"?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or this incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom?

Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. On what day?

Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there?

Mr. OSWALD. To visit with Marina, and to take her to the cemetery.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Your children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police officers.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men?

Do you recall any of them at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office--the U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you have placed them in this note refer?

Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, your first conversation of it, your first notice of it.

Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other matters.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa.

Mr. JENNER. And who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, standing by the sink.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa and the others?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room.

Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you describe as a den?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what?

Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, built-in oven and range.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were. Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And we finally--he finally brought up this question.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as best you can, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards him. He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to me----

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best remembrance--that was everything that was said from him.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information?

Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been disclosed to you before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I was hearing.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this story?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in question had taken place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the attack on General Walker or not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was aware of the attempt on General Walker's life.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to this, with respect to this event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964, approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that----

Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to that--that is, after January 13, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other?

Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question him further about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question?

You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you have kept since November 22d?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the first time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning.

Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to me?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning, when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S. Government this particular incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. You had?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when?

Mr. OSWALD. This was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a calendar, please?

On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with the advice of my counsel.

Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance, or did they come to you with specific reference to it?

Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of February 18, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents?

Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that information?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to state what I told the agents.

Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it was Monday, February 17th.

Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday.

And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15 or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on February 17th, at which time I suggested that if they would like to talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so.

Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill?

Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon, February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to the initials and what it meant, at which time I did.

Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15, 1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other person, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent of the U.S. Government.

My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was.

Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary?

Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is, on January 13, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the incident.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning from the cemetery?

Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were driving to the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it out.

Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started relating to me this incident.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring it up?

Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time, I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this when we were sitting in the den that afternoon."

Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what you said to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon.

And then she related----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr. Martin had related it to me.

It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the bathroom all day.

I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly was, or was, but later----

Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to your question was, "He certainly was."

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the period that he was locked in the bathroom.

And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt you?"

She said, "No, he did not spank me."

That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took place?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have taken place?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence?

Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald.

And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had lived in in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin, Marina--anybody at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a 98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the inside and not on the outside.

Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the bathroom.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps assist you?

The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know where they were residing when this occurrence happened?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source where this event took place.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex., at anytime?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen the apartments where they lived?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now.

I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from any violence on Mr. Nixon.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles' approval, interrupt you one more time for another statement.

I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr. Carlson and others to receive this award.

However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall the exact date.

But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so.

Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the 21st of November 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior.

Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21st of November 1963, and not prior to that time.

But we will----

Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are technically correct. It was the day before.

Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date.

Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and make it part of the record.

Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S. Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and he turned it over to the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that?

Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry in your diary, and after the event occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary January 13, yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the matter with her?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state who it was, at which time I did.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also prepared a diary?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel?

Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel.

Mr. JENNER. And what counsel?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been discussing?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this particular event with Mr. Knight.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie, had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the existence of the diary?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. To whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of February 1964, or January 1964--I advised her that I----

Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last week of January?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, really, rather than a diary, of past events?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a statement or memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman, could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence?

Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do.

I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced yesterday, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which you have before you, do you not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you delivered it to me yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating to anything involving your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on them, please?

Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been clipped?

Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2 weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with my body, I write for future reference for myself and for the future members of the family."

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have clipped?

Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. DULLES. Please.

What was "this story"?

Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to Lee's life.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is there another entry in your handwriting on that page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964, relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record the balance of that page, are you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week if she knew"----

Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I had omitted a word.

Mr. JENNER. What was the word?

Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee".

Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word?

Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"----

Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write the word "Lee"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it. Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI read this in Marina's book."

Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI read this in Lee's book."

Mr. JENNER. That is correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in Moscow.)"

Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment.

Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order.

There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to locking in the bathroom for a day.

Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the locking in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day--pardon me. I misunderstood the question.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first page or started this memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it.

Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears the figures 12-7.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first entries?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963.

Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct Robert?

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are some breaks that I would like to identify.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification.)

Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence?

Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment.

Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped together at my request in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote on the particular occasion--that is, December 7, 1963?

I take it the balance of that page?

Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and the first part of the next page.

Mr. JENNER. Down to what?

Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date----

Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered?

Mr. JENNER. They are not.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them--Robert can number them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and likewise number the exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather than to place any markings on the original.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit?

The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook you wrote on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the 11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page?

Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina."

Mr. JENNER. And the last line?

Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"----

Mr. JENNER. Just the last line.

Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating".

Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, and that follows the asterisk?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964.

Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time.

Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made contemporaneously with the events recorded?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964, and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6 days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong.

Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday, January 19, 1964, is incorrect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to a calendar, I will correct the dates.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64.

I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday, January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second date of January would be correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to January 12, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of further identification of the exhibit, and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages of the exhibit on the photostatic copy.

Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like Robert to do that?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the original.

As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in sequence with the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2. The next, No. 3.

Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it.

Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next.