Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him--because I was aware of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also----

Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be released earlier?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that he be released earlier.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is all he said?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please?

Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 or 12, 1959, had you talked to her?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of whether it was weeks or several months?

Mr. OSWALD. I can give an estimate of several months.

Mr. JENNER. Several months?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the four month period?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period?

Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, you had not talked with her.

I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and injured her nose.

I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I correct about that?

Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You saw her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.

Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?

Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.

Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after the accident?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--I don't know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. Because this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store.

Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news you had of it?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well being was prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience of getting there.

Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, it was approximately two miles from my home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or from work to her place of business?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her?

Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday.

Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir?

When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you visited her?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, several months.

Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months, back into the winter time of 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58.

Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it have been?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a year. It had not been that long.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several months.

Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far back as January of 1959, am I not correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far.

Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been that much of a period of time--sometime in January, 1959, to this occasion in April of 1959 when you had--you visited her at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer.

Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958?

Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 that I did see her.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent.

Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. Oswald.

I take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is '58, '59, and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother was quite limited?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the broad picture first.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952.

Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently.

Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps--was that stimulated in any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please?

Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was approximately May 29, 1952----

Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we----

Mr. DULLES. '52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi.

Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex.

At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life generally.

Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live on your own?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to start my own life in the manner that I wanted to.

Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that you had led up to that moment?

Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely in all respects.

Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to your brother, John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would?

Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir--thank you.

Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach that conclusion.

Mr. DULLES. You would?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go off on the trip?

Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Without advising her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at home.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there.

Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on her own, or don't you know?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the request to the Red Cross.

Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something along that line. And I thought it was unwise.

Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, the conditions which brought that about?

Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at her apartment there in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it quite difficult"?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.

Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents.

Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming married before you became married?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, that I would stay with her.

Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in November--November 20 or 21, 1956.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your marriage.

Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her objecting to your fiance?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?

Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to the extent of my friend, either boys or girls.

Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will also ask you about Lee Harvey.

Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.

Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother.

Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his choice.

Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.

Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether he brought his friends to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.

Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are talking about.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of antipathy exist at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did.

Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young Street address in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. At or about that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was that in 1948?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that particular time to any extent.

Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my feeling at that time.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April 1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.

Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury?

Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of the nose.

Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her injury was major or minor?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.

Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the physicians indicated otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this injury?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or did she continue working?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the accident occurred.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from the service earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of his return?

Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.

Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You have the original of that letter before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly?

Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he was going to go about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course, indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what type of work he wanted to do.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.

How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he had been discharged?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you had that he was in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or four days between his return and going off again.

Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in the Marines, and any leaves.

Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?

Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.

Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at this particular point.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not. However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall that conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset him, or might have made him happy.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available now? Do you have those letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any others.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough search?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to us, will you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, than he had theretofore?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which was, of course, a period of time after one year.

Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any particular town or city in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to write to him at that time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about so states.

That is correct, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite regular.

Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he says, in a long time.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two or three letters.

Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps September.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the purpose of finding employment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that I asked him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any intention of going to Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to the middle of September 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the letter of November 8?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had been studying Russian while in the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading during this period?

Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great deal, devote much attention to reading?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.

Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the period of which you speak?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of his moving to Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the literature he was reading?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already stated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or works, or pamphlets of that nature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should I say, of a political nature.

Mr. JENNER. Even American politics?

Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course, would go into some degree of American politics.

Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American history.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he says, and startling things he says in this letter.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned----

Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, with these utterances in it, did not surprise you?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country I hate."

Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper clippings or articles?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did.

Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I was just making a note on that. I didn't realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he hated the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel I have.

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union.

He complained about the economic system in the United States.

Mr. DULLES. System?

Mr. JENNER. System--which he stated exploited all of its workers.

He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the United States.

He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the present capitalist system of the United States overthrown--he having made an indication to the witness in that respect.

Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United States."

Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of misspelled words.

And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them put together.

Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an interesting observation.

Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of November 26, 1959.

In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined.

"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no troubles at all now along that line."

Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the letter of November 26th, "Note new room number."

Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was it before the other incident that has been described for the record, with regard to----

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you please state it?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the Soviet Union on October 13, 1959.

Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters referred to?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have already mentioned--that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far as funds are concerned--he is in good shape.

Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first time?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to Minsk, as well.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money for his return to the United States, and for that reason only.

I did not enclose any money in my answer.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like to inquire of you; also, as to its implication.

Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States.

Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would gladly send him money to return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now refer?

Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the letter of February 15, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315.

Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds necessary to bring about his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get settled himself.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he responded directly to your offer to advance funds?

Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters that you received from him while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of those letters to the Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance any funds to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him when he returned in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, 1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to advance the $200?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a report.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also, the letter--let's just stay with the letter of November 26th.

Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November 26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist Russia, or countries of that character?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards the United States and its political and economic and social system?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply to his letter----

Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was?

Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it was--and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I ever wrote.

Mr. JENNER. All right--tell us about it.

Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to--if I may refer to the first question.

"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions against employers in the United States."

I recall I did reply to that statement.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion--and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was voted out.

Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed?

Is it all right to proceed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to directly in my reply--I recall replying to the statement that was, that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

Mr. JENNER. Yes.