Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any.

Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive Inn at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous?

Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service agent, Mike Howard.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it?

Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to Dallas.

Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that? Is it recorded in your diary?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have in mind.

Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. In what city or town?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.

Mr. JENNER. None?

Mr. OSWALD. None.

Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February 11, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you can recall none other--no other persons?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that subject in the correspondence you have produced for us?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias Jack Ruby?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?

Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon which you can base an opinion.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not.

Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.

Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to add or could add?

Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.

Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion.

Do you have an opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.

Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it?

Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn----

Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it?

Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that.

Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages----

Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an alternative.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside in her place.

Mr. JENNER. As a possibility?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might----

Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation such as that.

Mr. JENNER. I forgot now.

Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.

Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer.

Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.

After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question--

Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate room.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his home, and the children into his home.

Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you.

You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not theretofore become acquainted with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was Mr. Martin.

And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know him from then on.

Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew little or nothing?

Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not.

Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For what reason?

Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police office, as previously testified.

Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine and live.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the thing to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response.

What did you say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't think they are the proper people"?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult.

Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his recollection.

Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may.

Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?

Mr. McKENZIE. Surely.

Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way?

Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I think he is trying to answer your question.

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.

I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred.

Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do?

Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line--something of that nature, sir.

That is the best I can do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction of that--was that Saturday night, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday.

Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations about them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. Paine from time to time would visit there.

Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced. Isn't that correct?

Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.

Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also.

And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.

Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."

Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?

Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir.

On Thursday, the ensuing night.

Mr. JENNER. The following day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.

Mr. JENNER. You do not?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.

Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.

You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will withdraw that.

Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.

Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.

Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.

Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?

Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."

And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.

And that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.

Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.

I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.

And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary.

Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course.

But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.

And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And did they do so?

Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there--I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the FBI agents on this particular day.

Mr. JENNER. Through what source?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. That she did not----

Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?

Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.

And other Secret Service agents.

Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?

Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.

Mr. JENNER. In the home?

Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.

Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, 1963, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.

I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.

Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response?

Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."

I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.

And he said he would speak to her.

Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.

I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.

Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They spoke English?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.

And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."

Mr. JENNER. And did you?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.

Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.

And I returned to my chair at the table.

They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.

I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.

As the other gentlemen arose----

Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?

Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.

And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."

Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.

Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.

About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said this was so.

Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown?

Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that----

Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note?

Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used in the letter--that I do so.

Mr. JENNER. That you do what?

Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.

This I did not do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He did not request it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And he refused?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their--as husband and wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate.

Mr. JENNER. Of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. DULLES. What was it?

Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence.

Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Silence.

Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. By anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the period up to and including November 22, 1963.

What is your opinion on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less than what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mr. OSWALD. None.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.

Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that.

Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.

Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right.

Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.

Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

You have testified to ownership of rifles.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that.

Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.

Do we have that contract?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.

And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.

I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.

And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.

And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.

And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.

Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her?

Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French?

Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.----

Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.

George Bouhe?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?