Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I am not a detective, and I don't say it is the answer to it. But I must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this information.

Now, here is another instance----

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men are engaged in?

Mrs. OSWALD. The assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the story, if you please.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because that is a very serious charge.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's attitude also.

Now, I have to continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you described that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have to continue.

While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl. Marina was under--what is the word--I won't say influence--these two men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing more than that?

Mrs. OSWALD. More than taking care of Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, describe what more.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right, I will describe it for you.

I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my thoughts together.

I noticed that--and of course as I have testified, the way the man treated me--and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November 26th Marina and I--before November 26th--Marina and I were very, very friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"--"Mama has a big heart." And we planned to live together.

I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some clothes.

From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said, "I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes."

So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina, "Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and at least we have a start."

"Okay, Mama. I not want big house, Mama. I want small place."

And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted small things. Fine.

On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock--this was in the morning--I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off and walked away.

Mr. DULLES. What date was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for an FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine." And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied.

So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she thought--because I had to use the name Lee so many times--that I was hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and shrugged me off.

So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me."

He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to tell you."

I said, "Well, Robert, why didn't you tell me?"

Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why didn't you tell me?"

He said, "Because just the way you are acting now."

I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction."

"Well, that is why we didn't tell you. We knew you would take it that way."

And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina. And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina--and I will present this in evidence.

Now, Mr. Gregory is involved--Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking. They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story.

Yes, here it is.

And there are other offers Marina had--other offers.

So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it. And they gloated.

Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed financially and otherwise.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this Mrs. Pultz?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these things"--because he knows the story. This has all been published publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper, all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article until the other day.

Mr. RANKIN. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home, and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer, according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz. That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is offering her a home.

Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and I will tell you further what I do know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to identify this as the next exhibit.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. OSWALD. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th. It would have to be the 27th.

Mr. RANKIN. Now----

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, there were other people that offered her homes.

Mr. RANKIN. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Well--no--as I have explained before, Robert and I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it, or just trying to look out for----

Mrs. OSWALD. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech, that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and face our future together. I could see no reason--and I made this at the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even said--we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What about you helping us?"

"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama."

Marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. But I was her Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home.

Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story. But as I go along--I have witnesses--and that is why I asked you, sir, I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I am telling you. It can be proven, sir.

So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me.

That night, the night of November 27th--now, we were in a bedroom with twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "they"?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way about me. I didn't say a word. What I did--I sat up in a chair all night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I was being pushed aside.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, what Secret Servicemen were these--Mr. Howard?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Howard was involved, and this other man.

Mr. RANKIN. The same man?

Mrs. OSWALD. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, and they didn't tell me--and Mr. Peter Gregory.

Mr. RANKIN. And did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all night long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that arrangement?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can you explain that to us?

Mrs. OSWALD. About this particular instance?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went ahead and planned all this without my knowledge.

Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard feelings--even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way I can.

So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part of this.

Mr. RANKIN. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her children along?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect stranger--maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see that.

Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they were trying to do the right thing?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure--I don't think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we go along.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said you thought it was deliberate.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live with another lady--this Mrs. Pultz--you said you did not think it could be innocent or in good faith?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because then this same Secret Service man, that I don't know the name--now, I may be wrong about this--just a moment. No--this is not the same man.

One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss, because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not involved in any way."

So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of--I am not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered what is going to become of me.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that there was nothing improper?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and Robert's job is secure--but I am nothing. I was not included in the plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me.

I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why.

It is very strange.

I packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as I said.

So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there. I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I am out of everything, so I insist on going home.

Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren, and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the Inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door.

Mr. RANKIN. What day is this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me home--I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell Marina and the children goodby."

He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will get in touch with you."

So I never saw Marina after that time.

Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell her goodby.

So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina, he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina--if I am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I have tried unsuccessfully.

Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne--Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me.

Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote?

Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I wanted to hear it from Marina.

So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina. Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the Civil Liberties Association--I don't know if that's the proper name--in Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many people question this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul. My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before then.

His family went with him--I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable for news.

Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time, waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there again, I am excluded.

Do you know the answers to all these exclusions? I do not.

The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks, gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I watched every television program, and I took it down in black and white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy."

She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over with, believe me.

She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks--8 weeks, gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina.

Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the facts that Marina has manufactured since.

I am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your claim on, that Marina was brainwashed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina. I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen.

Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning that. The papers have blasted it continuously.

Mr. RANKIN. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy she could not even take care of the children?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection. But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to see me?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of the people that would want--or did want to see Marina?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. And take her time, while she had to take care of the children.

Mrs. OSWALD. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused permission to see her, then we question it.

No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. Mr. Thorne was her attorney.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, we will get to Mr. Thorne.

When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my daughter-in-law and grandchildren?"

And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts."

He volunteered the information to me.

And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"--because I had already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time I had contacted him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts."

I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine, that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and he said he would inquire about it.

I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both."

The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely want my share."

Believe me, gentlemen, I have never received 1 penny.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. They said yes--and my son was there when I said that--they said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home, because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"--I believe it was----

Representative FORD. Third of what?

Mrs. OSWALD. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of November--approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret Service at this time.

So 2 weeks later----

Mr. RANKIN. How much did that amount to, that was divided in your home?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little over $900--about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

So about 3 weeks later--now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know about the dates.

Mr. Thorne--from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--not "and Marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks, made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time. But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me.

Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief of police was being photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram--and I have these things--you will have everything I have--to each one, the same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at 2220 Thomas Place. I received no mail.

Three days later--I received no mail.

So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had. And I knew it was a positive tip--I could feel sure this young man was giving me the right information. I had much information that the public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr. Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals--we have this--my mail opened and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence.

Now, what right--I am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all through this that I am fighting for.

If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there is quite a possibility that it was.

Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about it.

First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me.

My rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. Every newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee, from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing them things--because I was proud of the things I have, and I think, gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different picture of this boy.

There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came to know that--a New York reporter had offered--he was going to write a story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our government.

But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any information I have.

One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army--I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next--the letters?

Representative BOGGS. Was a colonel in what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Representative BOGGS. One letter said he was a colonel in what?

Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army.

Would you like to look at these letters while I continue, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DULLES. Are these the lost letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, these are letters from Lee to me from Russia.

Mr. DULLES. I thought you said three were lost.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel was lost--that the Secret Service men took--three letters--that would be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they were taken from my home.

Representative BOGGS. How did you get them back?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am going to tell the story, and I have witnesses.

So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness, who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the paper.

So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man--and I can find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters.

Mr. RANKIN. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters and other things?

Mrs. OSWALD. I got $50 for each letter. And I have the receipt.

Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. $150.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he published them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Yes--he published the letters. It was published in the New York Times, the three letters.

Mr. RANKIN. Then they were returned to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had, he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had.

Mr. RANKIN. And you did not get paid for those at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--these are different letters. So they returned those letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them. But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I had to sign a receipt for those three letters.

Am I making that clear now?

May I have some water, please?

Representative FORD. Are we going to get these letters in the record?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Let me get the letters in the record, then.

Mr. DOYLE. Let me go off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a while.

What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's uncle. The other two I am not quite sure.

Representative BOGGS. What does it say about her uncle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have to find the letter, sir.

I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the Secret Service--because they are the Secret Service. But there are men in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just like in any other organization--let's face it. We have such men as Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not to be the right type.

I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police. And my son--had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are the man back of the title.

Mr. RANKIN. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is one I am sure of.

Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th--I picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper--I will be through with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night----

Mr. RANKIN. This was 1963, after the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask.

But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the story of the woman offering Marina the home.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he was in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, for you to do that. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And I believe maybe I could--I would not want to state a fact that these two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two letters as the proper letters.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you could look them over and see----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right.

Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is all right with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by putting those stickers on we can help you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by the dates.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced.

(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from the Soviet Union. And I think it would be better for our record if I briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can be compared with the number.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 180 bears the date of July 18, 1961, on the envelope.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin--is that the American or the Russian postmark?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the American postmark.

Mr. DULLES. Time of receipt in this country?

Mr. RANKIN. That's right.

Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the envelope, and you do not have that here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night.

Mr. RANKIN. You have not produced it today, though.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first letter I received from Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army."

Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that.

Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October 10, 1961. I also offer that.

In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in accordance with our understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when you finish.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.

Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961?

Mr. RANKIN. '61----

Mr. DULLES. It is all '61?

Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the postmark proves the date.

As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is just----

Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not located.

Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of the Metropole letter of 1959.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark.

Mr. RANKIN. That's correct.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this reference.

"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However, her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire."

Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I previously stated, had.

Now, may I say something here?

Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. But I have a record of both names.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183.

Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the other by her stepfather?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name appears on her papers as the father.

Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the letters. That is what I find peculiar.

Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to be shown.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee Lee Oswald. That I know of.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence.

Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185.

Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, 1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186.

Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 187.

Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 188.

Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189.

Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, 1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit 190.

Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191.

Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything I had to sign for.

Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took.

Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast.

Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast mail. I offer Exhibit 192.

Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193.

Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194.

Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195.

Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, 1962. I offer Exhibit 196.

Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197.

Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198.

The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through 198 for identification, were received in evidence.)