Chapter XXXIV: Part 34

Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that had been--that he had been charged with.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed him.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you?

Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation with him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your best. Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. To find out.

Mr. JENNER. From whom?

Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our----

Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview?

Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been accused of.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did you see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the surroundings?

Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side from the unlocked side.

And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your brother that you were the one who was coming to see him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to see you, and I gained the impression from that----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to see.

Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. By what means?

Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass partition.

Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement to me was "How are you?"

My reply was "I am fine."

I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say anything because the line is apparently tapped."

I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Just do your best.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family.

Mr. JENNER. His family?

Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And, also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"

His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily.

Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were not mine.

Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had Marina seen him the day before?

Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.

Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the family to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not aware of it at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."

Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of this child?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence?

Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they would take care of Marina and the children."

Excuse me--I started too soon.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right.

Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got through to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was not talking to the Lee I knew"?

Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously stated, very mechanical.

Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?

Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.

Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of the President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to obtain more information from him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary?

Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.

Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right.

Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.

On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given to all of the questions I have put to him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share it for the Commission.

Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time----

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything?

Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my memorandum, on page 12.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find out the truth and nothing else."

Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

I have one question, only one.

You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk with him.

Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances where he appeared to desire publicity?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my home.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing?

What is your religion?

Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were.

Mr. JENNER. All three of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further.

Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank you for it.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help.

Mr. JENNER. You have.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald your statement for the record.

I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir.

Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded along.

Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and further agreed that their services will be available at all times to yourself and that you will use same as required by you.

Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. John M. Thorne to represent you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.

Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question?

Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer?

Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in your diary, but reported in the letters to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which has been introduced into evidence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your knowledge?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.

Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June?

Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I refer to what particular church or denomination.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church.

Mr. McKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at this time or since she arrived in this country?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my observations of her reactions and her conversations with me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word "coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use conjecture?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his position with any government agency or individual.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, or the facts as you know them now?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of your recollection in each instance?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your attention?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.

Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his attention----

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add here--I hope that that will be looked over, the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any corrections within a reasonable length of time.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will do so.

Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive.

Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach Sunday school and be with my children.

Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it done.

Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin.

Mr. McKENZIE. I shall.

If you receive from any source any further documentary information or any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in preparing its final report?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do.

Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any other form of welfare aid?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the State of Louisiana.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but I want to make it absolutely clear.

Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government.

Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission which is now known as the Warren Committee.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement to the press at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald expressing sympathy for President's family?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any statement to that effect to yourself.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November 25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of the United States.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which she might have said?

Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission.

Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.

Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the Commission, to your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that during our first session on February 20, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at that time if he had committed the crime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied 'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'"

Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else?

Mr. OSWALD. To that----

Mr. JENNER. In response to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President?

Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark that you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you believed a denial?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question.

Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that he believed the denial.

Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my recollection.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought to my attention or that I have read.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question?

Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County?

Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail.

Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at all on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the Commission, subject to recall and being resworn?

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding.

In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known to the President of the United States to use at his discretion.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question?

Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to you in the presence of the Commission.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record.

Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, February 27, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN

The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles and Ford and I are present.

Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each time we convene.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mr. Martin:

"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, 200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to (1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with her appearance before this Commission.

"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the necessary details will be arranged when you are here.

"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence."

I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter?

Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did.

THE CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in my absence he will conduct hearings.

Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day.

Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARTIN. I do.

Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't been introduced to them.

The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American Bar Association.

Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's office of the District of Columbia.

Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too.

The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig.

Mr. LEECH. Who is that?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in the paper and so forth.

Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona?

Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of Texas.

Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And this is the reporter.

All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name?

Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?

Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there?

Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And during what period?

Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution?

Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become acquainted with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her?

Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24.

Mr. RANKIN. Of what year?

Mr. MARTIN. 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave them several rooms to accommodate the family.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that?

Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort Worth and the isolation of it.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags Inn, Marina and some of her family?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there?

Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county sheriff about how this would be handled?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his first name.

Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite.

Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several other Secret Service men.

Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make payment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the room rate on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors or did you make the decision at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service people before that?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. What day?

Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not certain as to the exact date.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any other way at your Six Flags Inn before that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I don't know of any particular incidents other than----

Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina Oswald's rooms?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were rooms next door to it, but not connecting.

Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. All the time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--well, I remember his first name now, Mike Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. They seemed to change quite frequently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags during this early period that you recall?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home for Thanksgiving?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in those rooms was pretty cramped.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and her family in the invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He came out to the house also.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his name.

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at that time, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to come.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in your invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by then.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where she was going to go.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that?

Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her that I would be glad to take them into my home.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive for that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and----

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and said that it would work out all right.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that character?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. With any media?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer?

Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your home, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, how the layout of it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, dining room, den and kitchen, two baths.

Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from the rest of the house?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along the hall.

Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the hall?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours?

Mr. MARTIN. The next room.

Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used?

Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers?

Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom.

Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16.

Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room?

Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13.

Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room?

Mr. MARTIN. About the same size.

Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have?

Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl.

Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all prior to the time she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to come in, do you recall the date?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she came into the house.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.

(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please.

Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager first come up.

Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there about 3 or 4 days, I guess.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963?

Mr. MARTIN. 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up?

Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an attorney for Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?

Mr. MARTIN. In the den.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?

Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there.

Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer for her?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze?

Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie work and he would probably know something about the area in which we were talking.

Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer did you do anything about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?

Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina and Lee Gopadze and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter?

Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No.