Chapter VII: Part 7

Mrs. OSWALD. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well.

After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently.

By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother have any occupation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, laboratory assistant--I said that.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when your mother died?

Mrs. OSWALD. In 1957.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How much was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. All children received pensions.

We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that called a children's pension?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18.

Mr. RANKIN. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was paid to me directly.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your stepfather adopt you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not adopted.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you get along with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I loved them very much, and they loved me.

Mr. RANKIN. And your half sister, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what schools you went to?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied in a pharmaceutical institute--pharmaceutical school, rather than institute.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that nature.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you a good student?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved me. My language, you know--I talk a lot, and get a good grade.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you work part-time while you were going to school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did you do in working?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.

And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think I received 36 per month--this is new rubles--at that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you save any money while you were working before you graduated?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you work after you graduated?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, I left.

But he hasn't married up until now.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my diploma?

I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me a new diploma?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you--the Commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that----

Mrs. OSWALD. They should have treated it a little more carefully, though.

Mr. RANKIN. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't our action.

Mrs. OSWALD. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry--it is a pity for my diploma.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission to the school?

Mrs. OSWALD. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation.

Mr. RANKIN. Isn't there a place for admission, though?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, there is a place for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you were admitted to the school?

Mrs. OSWALD. In 1955.

Mr. KRIMER. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date.

Mr. DULLES. 1955, did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1955.

Mr. RANKIN. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I worked in the pharmacy?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? How was that arranged?

Mrs. OSWALD. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work somewhere else.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in this first job?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was there for three days, which is a probationary period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference which I received after I was going to the United States was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You were not assigned there, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is, registered in the police department.

Mr. RANKIN. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in Leningrad from some other point?

Mrs. OSWALD. First you must have relatives who might have some spare living space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. You know money does a great deal everywhere.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.

Mr. RANKIN. But since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk instead of staying in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family circumstances.

What can one do?

It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather.

Mr. RANKIN. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did not have enough money to pay for an apartment.

I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only 6-1/2 hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean by social life?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times?

Mrs. OSWALD. An awful lot.

Mr. RANKIN. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay there on vacation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I spent in Leningrad with some friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the rest home?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the people there to register you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle.

Mr. RANKIN. And were you registered there then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Forty-five, as everywhere.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that per week?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is a month. That is not America.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that 45 rubles?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Per month?

Mr. DULLES. Old rubles or new rubles?

Mr. RANKIN. Is that old rubles?

Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles.

Mr. RANKIN. What were your hours in this work?

Mrs. OSWALD. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m.

Mr. RANKIN. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital--there the pay is higher.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Preparation of prescriptions.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. I prepared them myself.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a supervisor?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I was responsible for it.

Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare medications--he is only an administrator.

Mr. RANKIN. How many days of the week did you work on this job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I didn't work.

Mr. RANKIN. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They had--they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that I spend the money on myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this uncle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of his work?

Mrs. OSWALD. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the Byelorussian SSR.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have something to do with lumbering?

Mrs. OSWALD. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry institute. Technical institute.

Mr. RANKIN. Is he an officer?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, very nice.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a telephone in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you save money?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in one day--three days tops.

Mr. RANKIN. What would you spend it for?

Mrs. OSWALD. First all the necessary things which I had to buy--shoes, an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is a Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why you were discharged?

Mrs. OSWALD. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views because you married an American?

Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't say that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had them?

Mrs. OSWALD. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I think it was sort of insurance.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the Comsomol?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you attend?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--I was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly--for what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."

But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to being removed from the Comsomol?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any social clubs there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any culture groups?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. After you came to the United States, did you correspond with some of these friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we made later.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life there at Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a restaurant.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And there I met Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. OSWALD. On March 4th.

Mr. RANKIN. What year?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes--but can you tell us the place?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the Palace of Trade Unions.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are public meetings?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties.

Mr. RANKIN. They have dances?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did someone introduce you to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who introduced you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yuri Mereginsky.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier--this was easier.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?

Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that make any difference?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet Americans very often.

Mr. RANKIN. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of times?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and he was there.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I should come there, if I could.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn what was wrong with him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being there alone.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you observe a scar on his left arm?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were married.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out about that scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn what caused the scar?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found out here, now, recently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out now.

Mr. RANKIN. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk about America at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you recall that he said about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said that his home was warmer and that people lived better.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about returning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then? No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe the life in America as being very attractive?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he----

Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was saying good things about America.

Mr. RANKIN. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to America?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would not forgive him such an act.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what attracted you to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. First, the fact that he was--he didn't look like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you?

Mrs. OSWALD. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was he living at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I never thought that I would wind up living there.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. We had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he paid for rent?

Mrs. OSWALD. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles per month.

Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was cheap.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot compare it to private houses people live in here.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an automobile?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is difficult to have an automobile.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a television set?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--I don't like television.

Mr. RANKIN. Why?

Mrs. OSWALD. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the movies.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his occupation at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his work was?

Mrs. OSWALD. As an ordinary laborer--metal worker. From that point of view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments?

Mrs. OSWALD. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say whether he liked this job?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't like it.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He didn't like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he liked it or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the Soviet system?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see.

But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we better adjourn now for the day.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, February 6, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later.

Mr. RANKIN. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the rifle there, as you understood it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired it. But I didn't see him.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after he came back, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad.

Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, and make fun of him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he react to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He became very angry.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make fun of his ideas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his childhood?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army--there is a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his childhood?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it.

Mr. RANKIN. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he tell you much about what he did?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance to go out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee whether he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said that I should not question him about it.

After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't love her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother Robert at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having any affection for him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of Pic--I guess the last name was Pic--Robert Pic?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name.

He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife, but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as high for the work he was doing?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he seem to get along with these friends?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a very good relationship with them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss any of them with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us when you married your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. April 30, 1961.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there a marriage ceremony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called Zags, where we were registered.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present at the ceremony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, our friends were there.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there for that reason.

Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was your baby born?

Mrs. OSWALD. February 15, 1962.

Mr. RANKIN. What is her name?

Mrs. OSWALD. June Lee Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you return to work after the baby was born?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you and your husband get along during the period that you were in Minsk, after you were married?

Mrs. OSWALD. We lived well.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a membership booklet?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, a booklet.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade union booklet that you had there.

Mrs. OSWALD. I never have a good photograph.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay dues to the trade union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I forgot to paste the stamps in.

Mr. RANKIN. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't seem to be in there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps in, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the payment.

Mr. RANKIN. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather than 1941. Do you know how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was older and put down 1940 instead of 1941.

Mr. RANKIN. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. Do you know why that would occur?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not at all--absolutely not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he go hunting while he was there?

Mrs. OSWALD. We only went once, with him and with my friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels?

Mrs. OSWALD. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, but they didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after your marriage that you didn't know where he went?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go back to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. After we were married, perhaps a month after.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the matter at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't discuss it--we talked about it--because we didn't make any specific plans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said about it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in connection with your plans to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We went to the American Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? About his passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the following morning I was to come there.

Mr. RANKIN. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket and he made the flight.

Mr. RANKIN. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the authorities.

Mr. RANKIN. When the decision was made to come to the United States, did you discuss that with your family?

Mrs. OSWALD. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to talk about it for the time being.

Mr. RANKIN. Later, did you discuss it with your family?

Mrs. OSWALD. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were trying to arrange to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to your going to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There were difficult times.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for a long time.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was all because you were planning to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your leaving?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

What?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were hospitalized for?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am nervous now, too.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you were doing?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy.

Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. Was that something different?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I was--I have to call it--an analyst. My job was to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist.

Mrs. OSWALD. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the pharmacy."

The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant."

These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but not in the sense of a grade of service.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals will be held subject to the further order of the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That may be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that perhaps he might even be arrested.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. The United States.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited your husband while you were trying to go to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961?

Mrs. OSWALD. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to come there for a rest because I was on vacation.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone go with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write to your husband while you were gone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mikhilova, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and not with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He wanted to go with me, but he could not.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, and what did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your visa?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy.

Mr. RANKIN. How long were you there on that trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated--all medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we would be in first place.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that records your military status.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is an indication there "non-Party member".

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why----

Mrs. OSWALD. Many were surprised at that--here and in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to Minsk?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent to Minsk.

Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean by direction of the government?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the diary that you have just referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't understand it.

Is that all? It seems to me there was more.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we have received. There are some other materials that I will call your attention to, but apparently they are not part of that.

I offer in evidence Exhibit 24.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that everything that Lee had written?

Mr. RANKIN. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard to the time he was in Russia.

Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing it daily or from time to time--how it was made?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter read it to you later, so you will know what is in it?

You may, if you wish.

Mrs. OSWALD. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps.

The CHAIRMAN. You may see it any time you wish.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no reason.

The CHAIRMAN. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it.

Mr. THORNE. Thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us.

Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having seen that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in it. I didn't know this was a diary.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what it was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the paper itself and the handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in savings when you left Moscow for the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps.