Chapter XXXV: Part 35

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed as her lawyer?

Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would involve, the kind of work it would be?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of compensation?

Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his qualifications to act as her attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. Thorne as counsel for Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that done?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the interpreter and you were present?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. Thorne at some time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection.

Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it with Mr. Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn.

Mr. RANKIN. Your office?

Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present.

Mr. MARTIN. No one.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no contract to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze that some counsel be gotten for her?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that time, did you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes?

Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or contributions.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as manager?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being the one.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what compensation you would have?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for acting as attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where we are in the proceedings?

Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that were made.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you know?

Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it.

Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as that is concerned.

Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at the coffee shoppe that you described?

Mr. MARTIN. Probably so.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the coffee shoppe that you referred to?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe after.

Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about?

Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract.

Were you referring to the Thorne contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and contributions, and we deleted those.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just described with regard to donations and gifts?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279.

Do you know what was meant by that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn from.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't recall the dates.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion?

Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her.

Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you were talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite reaction but I could tell she understood it.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you to think that she understood it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 cents of a dollar.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything----

Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents.

Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of this contract on donations and contributions from the public?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a good contract for her?

Mr. MARTIN. I probably did.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made by Robert, is that right?

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.

Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed that day.

Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I am not certain, about that.

Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share?

Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made?

Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December 4--3d or 4th.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a good idea, a bad idea?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to get?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent.

Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that Robert should get a share, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

Mr. RANKIN. Surely.

Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to do for his 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for your share?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story.

Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to do for his percentage?

Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability.

Mr. LEECH. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about what Robert would do for his share?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would probably be plenty for him to do.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at this time about the percentages?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the contract, of my contract.

Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that?

Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it.

Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume.

Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know.

Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We left the contracts with her for several days.

Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present.

Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those contracts at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust Robert's judgment on it.

Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. Just before--I guess the same day she signed it.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us whether you recognize the signatures on that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin.

Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out----

Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the discussion of the contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed.

Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th.

Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not sure about the days, and signed the contracts.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her signature?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does.

Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you know whose signature that is?

Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's.

Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. 279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it.

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at the same time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time.

Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall at this time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were drawn then?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at 10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you.

(Short recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please continue with the examination?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this information developed when some of the members of the Commission are here who might not be at other times during your examination.

Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and 9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. Thorne's was drawn the 5th.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice President of the United States.

Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?

Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night?

Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed that it was after work.

Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the bathroom and kept him there all day, they said.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a little far-fetched myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something like that."

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not?

Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Was this brought up in connection with anything in particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out?

Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue.

Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any background to it?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I think she was talking about Oswald----

Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of comments or was this an unusual circumstance?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely unattached to anything that we had been talking about.

Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she brought it up?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he wasn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this statement by her to you?

Mr. MARTIN. My wife.

Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue?

Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen to but they didn't sound right.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some other country.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say?

Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public?

Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a married man there.

Representative FORD. In Leningrad?

Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice versa.

Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other because of an association with a married man?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left.

Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you something that you don't believe?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that had, we will say, lovers----

Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a boy friend in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it.

Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get away from a married man in Leningrad?

Tell us how that came up.

Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two different people or--I would say 10 or 12.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe them. They were just conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment.

Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin.

Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related this to someone else?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical.

Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I supposed it was possible.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to when Marina told you?

Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said?

Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something like that.

Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did you say that?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe so.

Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our records.

Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her?

Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months----

Senator COOPER. I know that.

Mr. MARTIN. To me.

Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about it.

Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he would take care of it then.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street.

Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963.

Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill him.

Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to differentiate between shoot and kill?

Mr. MARTIN. At the time?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well?

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or unemployed at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in a bathroom for one whole day?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, any motive?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And she shrugged her shoulders.

Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when I asked.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon incident was after the Walker incident.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you?

Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she would report him to the police.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said it was.

Mr. DULLES. She said that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker.

Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which subsequently followed?

Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it if I had.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any Federal authorities?

Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon incident with her?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what?

Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had gone there or that he was going.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to Washington?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of those interviews?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they could come back the next day.

Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her to tell the truth?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI and Secret Service interviews?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked specifically about the Mexico incident.

Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had told the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?

Mr. MARTIN. She said no.

Mr. REDLICH. What did you say?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything.

Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall----

Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening.

Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den.

Representative FORD. Just the three of you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her or just how did the situation arise?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general.

Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any writings she might----

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. --she might produce would include?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either.

Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the ones you have indicated?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne.

Is there anyone else you have told this to?

Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine.

Mr. REDLICH. Who?

Mr. MARTIN. Levine.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is he?

Mr. MARTIN. A writer.

Mr. REDLICH. For what publication.

Mr. MARTIN. He is an author.

Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the record.

Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him?

Mr. MARTIN. Back in January.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him?

Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets the eye, so to speak. He is----

Mr. DULLES. More to what?

Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination.

Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. And he--of course, he is quite familiar with Russian affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut.

Mr. REDLICH. That who was.

Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the release of this information to Mr. Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the story or the right to write the story?

Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that you revealed to him the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to Robert?

Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And----

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your house?

Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays.

Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays?

Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with regard to the revealing of this incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say anything about it.

Mr. REDLICH. To anyone?

Mr. MARTIN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all during your conversations?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was appearing before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her.

Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that.

Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations concerning whether she should mention it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald whether she had mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I think so.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. He said no.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have mentioned that incident before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several days?

Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in the diary.

Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard of a diary.

Then--which I told him.

He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed the incident to be true?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the same day, isn't that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we couldn't think of how it could happen.

Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to read into the record a story which appears in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston, Texas, February 26, Associated Press:

"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the slaying."

Mr. MARTIN. Now. I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented before the Warren Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know about it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned about it the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter.

Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to somebody the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off.

Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. General Walker?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard about it was when I read in the newspapers.

Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it.

Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at General Walker?

Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought that General Walker was a Fascist.

Senator COOPER. Right.

Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed.

Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any intentions that he had to kill any other person?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. You are sure of that?

Mr. MARTIN. Positive.

Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald might have made about President Kennedy?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that----

Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether they were or not.

Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything----

Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the President.

Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?

Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months.

Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that period of time.

Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom she married?

Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. I mean she doesn't fit.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.

Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way?

Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an American woman, and she was not very upset at all.

Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. About her husband.

Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death?

Representative BOGGS. Well now----

Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.

Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?

Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.

Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at all.

Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.

Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since.

Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen.

The Fords also expressed the same opinion.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion?

Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think.

We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at all.

But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside down.

But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us.

Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the Fords or how long after she moved?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and----

Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her appearance before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. Right.

Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in.

Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there?

Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say?

Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me.

Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing.

This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?

Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy.

Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?