Chapter XIV: Part 14

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from what I can see from here.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is Exhibit 198 you are speaking of?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is quite a big undertaking.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all right.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each instance.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret Service people that you described and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped. Now, am I still at the Six Flags?

Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate with her.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her.

Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail.

Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories.

Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story.

Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief.

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good.

Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did not use that expression.

Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" and blown it up.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say----

The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the belief that there was such a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one sentence----

The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of that, and then we will go to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long story.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they were not in the order they are now.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop whenever----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these stories I have told you are fact.

Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And then I will say this is part of another story.

Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what I based that on, too.

It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here.

Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are throwing my mind off.

The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about three or four today, complete stories.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue about the order. I want you to tell your story----

Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story.

Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you advise the Commission, and I am certain that----

Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission that I would like to say, that would take up some time.

Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted that protection.

Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested protection."

I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring consistently.

I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have protection. I was leaving myself wide open.

So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?"

I said, "No, he is not."

He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do you intend to do with the papers?"

I said, "The papers will stay with me."

He said, "Is your attorney in there?"

I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney."

He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault."

I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very uneasy."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 o'clock."

I said, "That is just fine."

Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we picked up the papers before 6 o'clock.

Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were circling the neighborhood.

Now, that is not complete protection.

I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is not complete protection.

So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, which this Fort Worth policeman did.

So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the phone.

I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking for Secret Service men all morning."

I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And nobody ever came. I was not under protection.

So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders."

I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?"

She said, "He is on his way to your home."

This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written down. 11:45.

So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was on my way to Washington.

So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call me?"

So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later Mr. Sorrels called.

He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular case?"

And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and forth conversation.

So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over him, so I can get complete protection."

Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald."

So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line.

But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot.

He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she gets to Washington."

So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do."

And then I got protection.

Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers, and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection?

I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself called Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call.

So why didn't I have complete protection?

There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be answered.

Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex.

I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it is.

But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your daughter-in-law?"

I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day."

"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your daughter-in-law?"

And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing my daughter-in-law."

Which, to me, is a fact.

So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the Secret Service was when it happened."

And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that."

And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, "Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law."

So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law doesn't want to see you?"

And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not want to see me."

And Mr. Sorrels never told me.

Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this quizzing.

The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever since the testifying began?"

I said, "No, sir; it is not true."

Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 weeks? I don't understand these things.

Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock.

Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I break down.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, February 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to proceed?

Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, in one capacity or another in the past.

I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better advise the Commission about the point.

Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. True.

Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the matter.

Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for these few hours.

The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane.

Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the two.

Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect his views in the matter.

Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood his response.

Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald for just a minute or two.

The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

You may take another room, if you wish.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may continue with the hearing.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here.

But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything.

My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under protective custody, and I was not.

I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it.

These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no----

Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it.

Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower.

Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship.

Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing corresponds with what I have.

So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the State Department wrote this particular letter.

Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very conflicting testimony.

You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in conference with three officials. And this was another Administration.

Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a little from the news.

Lee's defection was in one Administration--right?

And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not impossible.

So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to assassinate the President, though.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday.

So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for a long time.

The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack Lengett--she said, "You no have job."

In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go to--"You don't have job."

Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."

I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. You don't have job."

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. She was not supposed to speak English.

I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that is a question.

Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been publicized over and over.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.

Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the Six Flags.

Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.

But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside.

I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things.

So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything else--circumstantial evidence, let's say.

I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial evidence.

I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this.

The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our President properly.

Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many, many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering.

So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days.

When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a witness. You don't have to take my word for it.

Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before.

The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.

And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house.

All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy about that.

And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl.

I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.

Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of President Kennedy.

You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible.

And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater.

In 29 minutes time it cannot be done.

So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he did it. Because it is utterly impossible.

And I do not believe my son did it.

I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved.

Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. She had turned against me twice.

You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My testimony is true.

So now she has lied there, I have found out.

And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have to face that.

Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. That is what I base it on.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, because I cannot, almost.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right.

If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that Marina Oswald was----

Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an agent. I cannot prove these things.

But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who shot President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the type person to be suspicious and imagine things.

You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my children were never tied to my apron strings.

And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that.

I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in this, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like Mr. Wade said.

But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has.

Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?

So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am wrong, fine. But you may learn something.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not give a name.

But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he might be.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what you think.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that.

But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but while we are here, I will continue this.

And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show you. I am the only person that has this copy.

I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more testimony than this. I have testimony, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high official you spoke about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said, it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion.

Now, this particular instance----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. We laid all the groundwork for that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing that he was an agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories.

Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would like very much to have it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow.

Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking for.

I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming that you gentlemen do not have.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to go story by story.

Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think there are some parts you possibly can know about.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again.

Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw that they took it.

Well, I can be telling the story about it.

It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram.

I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that.

A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home.

Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the original from Moscow.

I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to contact you."

She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?"

I said, "I don't know."

"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?"

I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia."

"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get back, they should stay over there."

So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. Would you please contact, give me the address of the International Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to come home?"

She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee.

I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the international committee.

So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he gave me no satisfaction.

Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I had no success--could they help me out?

So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International Rescue Committee. That you have.

And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part.

Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here.

So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for me.

She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key."

This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse.

I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and you don't have a key?"

"No, I don't."

"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important."

So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came.

So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter.

This is dated January 22, 1962.

So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex.

She called me and told me she had received word from the International Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, "Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?"

So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out.

But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is here--she cut it out.

Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come as a surprise."

So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the International Rescue Committee.

"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does not come as a surprise."

I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her feelings about a boy in Russia.

Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International Rescue Committee?

I would like to know who from the State Department called the International Rescue Committee.

There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary?

Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the International Rescue Committee.

And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped.

I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from the State Department--yes, sir, I would.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not going to get the money. Read the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you these things.

Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that is something different.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.

Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did have the proof, sir.

I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title.

Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different conspiracy?