Chapter IX: Part 9

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to go there to get it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, simply write a letter.

Mr. RANKIN. And they mailed it to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer that exhibit in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 130 seems to be an original instrument in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary issues.

Mr. THORNE. Whose certificate?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mine.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 130.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 131 is a one-sheet document in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. The same thing.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you have these other copies?

Mrs. OSWALD. These documents were needed for regularizing all the documents in connection with the trip abroad.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July 19 on them?

Mrs. OSWALD. In which?

Mr. RANKIN. In the original.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see that.

It says July 17, 1941. The certificate is issued July 19, 1961.

Mr. KRIMER. The transcript shows 17th of July 1941.

May I explain it, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are explaining it correctly.

Mr. KRIMER. I have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct.

This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer that in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. This is written in Russian.

Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from Golovachev. I simply kept them together.

Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is contained in words"--and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by that?

It says "Now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." Who is Paul?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia, and there is a film. I helped him with it.

Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that has nothing to do with the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 132.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 133 contains two photographs.

These are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol.

Mrs. OSWALD. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at first glance. But they are different poses.

Mr. RANKIN. You took both of those pictures, did you, in Exhibit 133?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And are those the pictures you took when you were out hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. With the pistol and the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 133.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were taken before or after the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Before.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of one of these pictures--what purports to be an enlargement.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your husband has a newspaper, it appears.

Mr. DULLES. I think in both of them.

Mr. RANKIN. I want to correct that.

In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you know what newspaper that is?

Mrs. OSWALD. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a paper that is--whether it is Communist, anti-Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you took these photographs?

Mrs. OSWALD. About two weeks.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134, made by you, or by someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know who made the enlargement.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen Exhibit 134, the enlargement, before this?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know whether this is the one I have been shown.

Mr. RANKIN. Who showed that to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Apart from Mr. Gopadze, somebody else showed me an enlargement.

Mr. RANKIN. Does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I think it was specially enlarged for the investigation.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit No. 134.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas."

And it is marked, "One--quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95," and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 136 is a camera contained within a leather case.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a Russian camera.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera or this.

Mr. RANKIN. But this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras?

Mrs. OSWALD. My husband's camera.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 136.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. It is an Ansco flash attachment.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 138 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this Ansco flash equipment an attachment for that camera?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. It seems to me that it is new.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 139.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 139.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 140 apparently is a blanket.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that blanket.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places where you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 140.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that June played with this blanket, Exhibit 140?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a balcony, for example, when June was playing on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that in this country or in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't crawl yet in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. What balcony was that--what house?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas.

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 141 is an envelope that contains a bullet.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your husband had?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think Lee's were smaller.

Mr. RANKIN. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to think it was the same?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see his?

Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans, and on Neely Street.

Mr. RANKIN. In the box, or laying loose some place?

Mrs. OSWALD. In a box.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 141.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 142 is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper.

Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't brown before.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see that before?

Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't know--I have never seen it.

Mr. RANKIN. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to get fingerprints.

Did you ever see anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody sees such paper. But I didn't see that with Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen anything like that around the house, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We have wrapping paper around the house.

Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was apparently made up into a sack or bag.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like that, to hold a rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for identification.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 143 is a pistol.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald's.

Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that as a pistol of your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 143.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 144 is a leather pistol holster.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a holster for Lee's pistol.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures that you took?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures?

Mrs. OSWALD. As much as I can tell.

Mr. RANKIN. At least they appear to be, as far as you can tell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and received in evidence.)

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two bullets, .38 caliber.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the bullets that your husband had for the pistol?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. OSWALD. At Mrs. Paine's I never saw any shells.

On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar--New Orleans. It looks like it. If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 145.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. We will be in order, please.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you about it, please?

Do you know the shirt that Lee Oswald wore the morning that he left?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. What else interests you? What do you want?

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on this desk belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are Lee's shoes.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say the shoes, you pointed to Exhibit 149?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a pair of shoes of which Exhibit 149 is a photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his bath slippers.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 148 are his bath slippers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Japanese bath slippers. These shoes I have never seen.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 147, you say those are shoes you have never seen?

How about Exhibit 146?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his, yes. These are all Lee's shirts.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, 151----

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his pajamas.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, and 151 are Lee Oswald's shirts, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 152 is a pair of his pajamas?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 153--you recognize that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is his shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 154? Is that one of his shirts?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 155?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, also. Why is it all torn?

Mr. RANKIN. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some of these.

Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit--the shirt that I point to now, the morning of the 22d of November--Exhibit 150?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was a dark shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that was the one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 156. Is that a pair of his pants?

Mrs. OSWALD. These are his work pants.

Mr. RANKIN. And 157?

Mrs. OSWALD. Also work pants. These are all work pants.

Mr. RANKIN. 158?

Mrs. OSWALD. Why were both of those cut? I don't understand.

Mr. RANKIN. I have not been informed, but I will try to find out for you.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not necessary.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on.

Mr. RANKIN. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as Exhibit 157, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about Exhibit 159, a sweater?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was my gift to Lee, a sweater.

Mr. RANKIN. 160?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. 161?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater.

Mr. RANKIN. 162?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. 163?

Mrs. OSWALD. Also.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit 163?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't observe it on him at any time, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that morning without your knowing about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you examine the collar on the shirt?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. It has a mark "Brent long tail sanforized."

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is also his.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164 as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not presented here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me.

Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to you.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked you, but I would like to ask it again.

I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy.

Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes.

Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware.

Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in concert with someone else?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone.

Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action alone, that he was influenced by no one else?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?"

Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more conscious than the Communists in Russia.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the usual sense of the term?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him normal.

Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you consider him mentally sound?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he was not a man deprived of reason.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask?

Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my opinion.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you may have answered--because I have been out at times.

I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or economic system, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not enlighten me as to his political thoughts.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your presence that the economic system of the United States should be changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose any methods.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of our country were changed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me.

Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any particular official of the United States?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know whether you could call him an official.

Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr. Frazier?

Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work.

Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your husband any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Senator COOPER. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to ask?

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing, these hearings the last 3 days.

Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish something?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, because I don't understand him.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further?

Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him holding the rifle and the holster.

Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other than your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there.

Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia when he was in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go through.

Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth.

The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but only to report to the world what the truth is.

Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, you may do so.

Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English.

The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel free to do that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it.

The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more questions about something that develops through the investigation, would you be willing to come back and talk to us again?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it is, you would be willing to come, would you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr. Thorne.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure.

Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would feel free to communicate with us.

Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time?

Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may do that.

Mr. THORNE. There are none.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne has been very helpful.

Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of me to make before this Commission.

You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two that need to be covered.

To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and tragic events we have been discussing.

Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient.

The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive, and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her identification and examination.

Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters?

Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits.

And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given her.

I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide. She is not afraid.

She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her. And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part she wants to get rid of them.

I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being guided. She feels she can find her way by herself.

And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter, of course, that ought to be considered.

But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection.

I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held back.

Is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said.

Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done, as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help during these terrible days that she has been going through.

But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs. Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the attention of the Commission.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.

Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please?

For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal, assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also.

I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some sources.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would be--and it would be the answer we would give--that Mrs. Oswald, in the future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she asks for.

Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it.

Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir.

Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the session, we will adjourn.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among Americans I would find so many friends.

The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Monday, February 10, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B. Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do--so help me God.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Now, Mrs. Oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Doyle is representing me.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed, was he not, at your request?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I asked to be represented by counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt.

That is correct, is it not, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. It is, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the Commission, are you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, voluntarily.

The CHAIRMAN. You requested to do so.

In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you have concerning this case.

You would like to do that, would you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Chief Justice Warren. I would like to very much.

However, there are three things that I have asked that should be brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already been granted--that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that fact.

I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and justice for all men, which is our American way of life.

My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the privilege of being represented by counsel.

However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be represented by counsel.

Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state, that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the papers--and I am assuming that this is correct--that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico.

I happen to know differently--because Marina has told me the first day I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work."

So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina said that--it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to Russia?"

And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a true picture.

I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual testimony.

Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget something. And the counsel would know.

We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me, gentlemen, they are not satisfied.

I can produce these documents for you.

They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides should be heard.

I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true conclusion. What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have--mainly, speculation and opinion of other people.

Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to those particular statements.

I implore you--I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented by counsel.

We have information pertinent to this case.

My daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified.

The things that came out in the paper--I know, I have documents. I am not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements that I say.

And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and there--you will have the other party's testimony.

Now, there is another----

The CHAIRMAN. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you, first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone.

It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report--not as a prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission--on the manner in which the President came to his death.

We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the Commission.

You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect--to any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the Commission.

But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying--that is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission.

But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also.

Now, you may go to your second point.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I am not finished with my first, please.

I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief Justice Warren.

But there is one thing--and, of course, I will have to accept your decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony the way you have suggested.

However, I am not in agreement with you. One point I want to make clear.

We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr. Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a conclusion.

I am going to go back to Marina. As I say, Marina made her statements----

The CHAIRMAN. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, in your own way.

Then we should know what questions we want to ask of you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that thoroughly.

But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies to witnesses. They may forget to testify something that my counsel has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it graciously.

I want that for record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state that for the record.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please--I will not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me.

I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service.

I make the statement perfectly plain. And so the documents stay with me.

Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them. However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the original returned to me.

I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour or two, and then return them to me--if I am making myself plain.

I would like to request that, please.

The CHAIRMAN. We will accommodate you in that respect.

Mrs. OSWALD. Then I have one other stipulation or request.

When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege, through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already.

And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about, and there are some people involved.

I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be subpenaed--not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that would make it necessary for her to be recalled.

I ask that that be granted.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be sure of that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate that.

The CHAIRMAN. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just have to leave that to the Commission.

Mrs. OSWALD. You will give me the assurance that these people I name, regardless of title--I am liable to name some very important people----

The CHAIRMAN. No, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't know----

Mrs. OSWALD. I see no reason, then, for my testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald--you cannot commit us to subpenaing anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark. You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally proceed.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no way--I cannot quote your words--intimidate me. But you did not include my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy. And so I would like my son--he is the main object of the Presidential Commission, is he not, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of President Kennedy.

It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different proceeding.

We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sure, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be fair to all concerned.

And I assure you that is our objective in the matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied that, I will--will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for record.

Now, I am going to produce--and this will be a fact--and this is on the basis----

The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have finished the three things that you are talking about, and we are going to your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And I think it is very important to present a picture.

And then if you allow me these few minutes, I will be through.

Is that satisfactory, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called.

Now, here is an article in the Washington paper--and the date happens to be torn off, but I can get it--that Senator John G. Tower had made. And I have outlined here----

The CHAIRMAN. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald--before we get into any details of this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask.

I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission. The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it subpenas and when.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be done, if the facts she outlines so require.

The CHAIRMAN. She may be very sure of that, as I tried to tell her.

But the only thing--I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say, "I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of them."

Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the Commission, and not in the province of a witness.

And I say that without any combative--not in a combative spirit. Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. And I appreciate the fact----

The CHAIRMAN. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we propose to be fair.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very aggressive person, as you know by now.

I would like--this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point, and then I would be through, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mrs. OSWALD. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the article is that he had received a letter from the State Department.

Now, I would like--I have information from the State Department, I have documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and contrary to Senator Tower's public statement.

And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is contrary to what I have.

He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off, because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not help him--is what he said.

But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have.

Now, he claims--and if you would like to read that--and that is what I was trying to bring out.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts considered.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most graciously continue.

However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son, because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may continue.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I will start----

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a member of the Commission.

Now, Mrs. Oswald--Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats.

The CHAIRMAN. You may start to tell your story in your own way.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr. Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first?

I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue with the--whichever way you would suggest I do it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you could start out and tell us within the period that Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters later.

Is that all right?