Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.

And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.

The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this particular source.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze the papers that I have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with my son's life from the very beginning.

Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to----

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr. Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first point, that will be fine.

But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early childhood.

Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory?

Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this, gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have witnesses that will be called--is a letter----

Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, because of what happened before. The note----

Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note?

Mr. RANKIN. We do.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let me see.

Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to page 11 and you will find the note you referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was going to San Diego.

Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever.

Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the 7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note.

If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note.

Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee."

Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me.

So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit.

Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for years--she will witness this.

He said, "Mother, I have quit school."

Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of went along with it. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald."

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me.

So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and I have quit school."

Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with Lee.

So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October 18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines. So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy.

Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines.

"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old."

I said, "Lee. We cannot do that."

He said, "Everybody else"--

I said, "No, I am not going to do it."

For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying his age.

So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the school and told them we were going out of town.

He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a lot of boys join the service at age 16."

So he could not advise me.

My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let him join the Marines."

I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans.

And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that particular address.

Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where the homes are.

So I was very upset.

There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16.

So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him join the Marines. It is done all the time."

Now, I was not too happy about this situation.

Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very vague about the thing.

I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are liable to send him overseas."

He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we have here."

He saw nothing wrong with it.

What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy to join the Marines. He came to my home personally.

So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing.

Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up. I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines.

I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but accept the fact to let him go.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt.

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend.

Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that.

Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this.

So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young.

Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that.

All right.

Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that.

Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the title was not.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps.

So that is fine.

What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part.

He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism.

Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the Marines--that whole year.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you.

His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends.

Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir.

And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe salesman.

That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there.

And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this dental laboratory job--that is correct.

So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen, I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling.

When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines.

The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an affidavit of his father's death.

And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th.

From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so he did join the Marines at age 18.

Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, that has something to do with it. Lee----

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he was an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17?

Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me.

Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol.

Do you have that information, gentlemen?

I don't think you have.

Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my papers. I put this in my bag.

I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are going back.

And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do research on all of this, and do it alone.

This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee is not supposed to have any friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the other young men, as I told you before.

Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol.

And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that caused you to think he was an agent, have you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I am saying.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think----

Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself.

Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer.

Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy.

Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you have told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story.

Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, if you ever get in the Marines."

Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea.

Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by this recruiting officer?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine Corps?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever became an agent or was going to become an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that is a lot of propaganda."

It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right, gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on the list.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot of comment about this all through.

Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy and the whole life, and you do not, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to.

Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them, because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every letter from Lee tells me something.

When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in Washington a while."

Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union."

"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship."

If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother, these are facts."

I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned.

Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called defection, for this reason.

Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me from New Orleans is what I need.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to Washington?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the letter with me. They are at the hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the 13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not know. And I do not know if he went to Washington.

As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. So I don't know when he arrived in New York.

Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that way.

The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his being in Russia.

This is the letter.

"Dear Mother"-----

Mr. DULLES. Is that dated?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr. Rankin.

And he stayed with me 3 days.

And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He stayed with me 3 days.

"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now."

"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. Lee."

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion.

Now, what would you think about this?

A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the letter.

It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. So you would read the letter that way.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the Marines?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from your son during the time he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red Cross--when I told him about my illness.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters.

What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would.

But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go.

She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police."

So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home.

When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from Lee in the seabag.

And so I don't have the seabag.

You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is defecting to Russia.

We all agree there.

Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother.

After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies.

The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place."

I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room.

So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother."

So morning came.

I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job."

He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money."

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have gone through.

I didn't answer Lee.

This is the way I do the children.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me $100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection.

So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959.

Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money.

So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof.

Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. But he----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet.

I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty."

We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee had a normal childhood.

And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not have that, I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter about his booking passage?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You read the original?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the bottom.

Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad points, but so do all of us.

Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one I am showing you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through all this paper. You will have all of this.

Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the $20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long.

So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr. Stanfield----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected.

Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never thought Lee was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you then thought he was an American agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything important. But now we have letters from the State Department.

Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So I made a personal trip to Washington.

I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was 3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I took a coach and sat up.

I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock."

So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, "I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with you."

So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will be near the State Department and convenient to you."

So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at 10:30.

But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a start."

So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home."

So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct.

So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," on that order.

I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. So I said that.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think my son should be home with me, is really what I implied.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I thought that he needed to be home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet Union, he might like it better there than he did here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an individual.

And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same way about it." That was their answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way of life better than ours?

Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want him also to do what he wants to do."

So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean it was not discussed. I am positive of that.

Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they did say that to you, that would be incorrect?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do.

Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip to Washington.

Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been telling you all along.

Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States. You have that, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian girl--approximately 5 weeks later.

Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, 5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S. Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but two on two in my books makes four.

I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of money to come home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl because they ordered him to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and everything. So they seemed to be well off.

I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as individuals, have a right to our own life.

Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together with you, didn't you, for some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I think they were in love with each other.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an agent and ordered to marry her that he married her?