Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say to me that, "You work here or there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at Convair?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Resentful?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction?

Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place?

Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly.

Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, if I may, please.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect thereto.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. And where was he--let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines then.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him that you were no longer with Convair.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about it when he was on leave in 1958.

Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any resentment or bitterness in that regard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter about it.

Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the Convair comment, in his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. I also----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with respect to the union question would your answer be the same?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would.

Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views that unions were exploited?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any discussion it would have been to the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and you thought well of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family as far as you knew?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your response.

Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, men who were there because they were drafted or because they were adventurers or unemployed in civilian life."

I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons behind their joining the United States service.

Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or visits on his part to Fort Worth?

Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want to be sure of it.

(The question was read.)

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor left, with the members of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I----

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow----

Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.

I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps.

I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss it with.

I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November 26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of time."

I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down.

I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the brief statement, "America is a dying country."

I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake.

This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world.

Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter?

Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November 26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it does not consist of a small home of taking and getting."

I recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and was something of a reward for his efforts.

Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these views to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in writing this letter.

Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are conducting this interrogation.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your recollection only what you did write, if you recall.

If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness.

You see no objection?

Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these letters on which we are interrogating the witness.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular line of interrogation.

Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony.

Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the record.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in full in the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot.

Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of 1959, it is a short one-page letter.

Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir.

Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you made to the November 26 letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to the letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the letter of December 17, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297.

Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298.

Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir?

Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter.

Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter.

Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read it, Mr. Reporter?

(The reporter read the answer.)

Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he received your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir.

Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds.

Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter with Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one.

Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he was given or earned?

Mr. OSWALD. While he was----

Mr. JENNER. Or he received?

Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed?

Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while employed in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars.

Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out.

Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any money by way of gift from any agency in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters themselves would be the best evidence.

Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist.

Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while your brother was there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. What did you receive?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times.

Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six napkins that Marina had embroidered herself.

Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while they were in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was that?

Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. And it contained what?

Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book.

Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English?

Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space program.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. A child's gift?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, a Russian coloring book.

Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee told you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence?

Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede that by the question did you have any conversation with him about hunting in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were not allowed to have a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any other occasion prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters----

Mr. JENNER. No, discussions.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership in a gun club while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a social club, a labor union or otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges against him.

Do you recall that?

Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship?

Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges?

Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again----

Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the correspondence which has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. McKENZIE. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. Jenner, there are questions raised about this.

Are you talking about after he returned from--to the United States from the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in returning to the United States, the means and manner of return?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, and from England to New York City.

Mr. JENNER. Did he or they----

Mr. OSWALD. He.

Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject or in her presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where?

Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow before they took off for Holland?

Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they stayed there at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched England in the sense that the ship----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long stay there and that they did not leave the ship.

Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put it to me.

Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, New York City.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to whether he was or might be a Russian agent?

Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early stay of his in Russia in 1959?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during this period of time with your mother or she with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Where did this discussion take place?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.

Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?

Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.

Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian Government.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have been into indicated that in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in January, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you?

Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of one sort or another for the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response might have been.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you don't recall your response?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any other government including that of Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not.

Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your brother was in Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at the time.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of time your brother was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit 301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you had of any change of attitude on his part?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in that connection.

Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, that Lee was becoming----

Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted.

Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year or so of silence----

Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter.

There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.

Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?

Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.

Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the Russian way of life.

Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to Minsk, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was received on the 17th of December, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then----

Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May 5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated----

Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance.

Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?

Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit numbers.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.

Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.

You need not do it.

Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.

Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.

Mr. DULLES. That is French.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother returned from Russia in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June 13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.

Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand English?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.

Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that regard become better as the months and years wore on?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, Tex., in the winter of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her desires in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con.

Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.

Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of time by him?

Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults in the family.

Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that you identified yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.

Did you send the football to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that you had put to him.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14?

Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters----

Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions."

I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive----

Mr. JENNER. He would respond?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not.

I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him.

Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter.

Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter.

Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room which was the living room of our home.

Mr. JENNER. In your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, 1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318.

As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?

Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?

Please, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed.

Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals?

Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. I have no objection.

I will find out who I should see about making these.

Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?

I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context.

Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the United States."

Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?

Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here?

You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back from Russia.

Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere?

Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more specifically, one newspaperman.

Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir.

Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving dinner.

Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force--he called me from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and wife were to join you on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320.

Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."

Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. JENNER. Who?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. You and your wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time.

Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?

Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic.

Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by way of employment in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.

Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.

Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's un-American beliefs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.