Chapter XXII: Part 22

Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on that date?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of December was a Monday, it was signed on that date.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar.

Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here.

Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday.

Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date?

Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday.

Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth.

Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed on December 6th?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed?

Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th.

Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first whether those signatures were affixed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a Xerox copy--was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time as the copy which you have produced for us executed?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir?

Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon copies, signed, at one and the same time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state your familiarity with those signatures and identify them?

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that?

Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, which I am familiar with.

The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar with his signature.

And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. Martin. I am also familiar with his signature.

Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276?

Would you take a look at it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties."

Representative FORD. What page is that?

Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts."

Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and preceding the execution of the document?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when executed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent.

The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.

I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures.

I have seen those.

Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?

Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures.

Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up?

Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?

Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.

Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.

Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of the funds?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's welfare.

Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?

Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being----

Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. She related this to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.

Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a conversation on the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. With whom?

Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. We don't have the full information.

Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie--you have been quite helpful. You might be further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the deposit.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen.

Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December 5, 1963, in which it has three--I presume these are omissions from the exhibit--commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an omission.

Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about that.

Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.

I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's signature or Mr. Thorne's signature.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are you familiar with any of the signatures it bears?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with which you are familiar?

Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature.

The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his signature.

Mr. JENNER. It is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit 279 is the signature of John M. Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on that date.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document until Thursday, February 13th.

Mr. JENNER. 19----

Mr. OSWALD. 1964.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an original copy.

Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom?

Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an original, carbon copy or otherwise?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy.

Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this is a photo?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it?

Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of the original?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution of the trust funds.

In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its uncontrolled discretion deem advisable."

Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John Thorne and James Martin.

Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a previous exhibit?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on my part. I do not know.

I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time have these, up until February 14--have these----

Mr. JENNER. 1964?

Mr. McKENZIE. 1964--have these exhibits, numbered consecutively from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines.

Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy.

Mr. JENNER. An executed copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document exhibited to you?

Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit 280?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve judgment on these.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that fact. I felt that that would be true.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct?

Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way.

Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified.

Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these documents.

Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me.

We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the summer of 1948, I believe.

Am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948.

We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a small home.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had entered elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. JENNER. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., sold?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best information?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on 7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went out there. I feel sure she did sell it.

Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a home at 7408 Ewing?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical characteristics of that home?

Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot.

Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall it--have either attached garage or separate garages.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house in Benbrook.

Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana?

Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home.

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young teenagers are?

Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee--was he likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the automobile at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive.

Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later years, I offered to teach him to drive.

Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate to the Commission this course of events in his life--a young man who never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how to drive--at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had purchased. And Lee was home on leave.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can.

Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958.

Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please?

Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive.

And I said, "Well, we can start right now."

It was an automatic transmission.

"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry about. And I would be right here with you."

Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it.

Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, to drive it.

Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile.

Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.

Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?

Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.

At one time I could handle it with both hands--especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.

Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.

Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Right handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.

There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.

Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.

Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be repeating myself here--at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.

Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.

Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage in athletics, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, pistols, cap guns, firearms generally?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.

Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did the same thing.

However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms.

Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we can orient ourselves.

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had indicated developments in that area as you became older.

I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course your brother John and yourself had attended military school.

Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.

To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting?

Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, and do my squirrel hunting.

I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard.

Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no firearms in the house.

He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we didn't even own a BB gun.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever had BB guns around your home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the neighborhood?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in firearms?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That every boy has?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys attended?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.

Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?

Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What high school did he attend?

Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to Paschal High School in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Had you attended either of those high schools?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the firearms.

But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19----

Mr. JENNER. '48?

Mr. OSWALD. '48--we moved to the address on Ewing Street.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling.

Mr. JENNER. First?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in----

Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School.

Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old.

You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, the ninth grade.

If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was completed at that time.

Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get confused.

You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So we now have--we are now into '49-'50, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you enrolled where?

Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long?

Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I started----

Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort Worth.

I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed out of school that next year and worked for A&P.

Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John?

Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard.

Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you recall what they were, per week?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week.

Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the sustaining of the family?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for expenses, a little spending money.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of any kind to your mother or sent her any money?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not allow her to work.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn some money?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume you continued working there the summer of '51?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself?

Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than she was at that time, I do not know.

Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period she was selling insurance.

Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, until I or my mother returned home from work.

Representative FORD. He was 9 or 10?

Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old.

Representative FORD. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A little more comes to mind there.

I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth--something along that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more accurate to what I really had in mind, there.

Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is, working to sustain the family?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or your mother returned to the home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who undertook to care for him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother.

Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What were your hours?

Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was home.

Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 o'clock, do you know?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time--we were getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 minutes or an hour earlier.

Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school year '51-'52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53?

Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.

Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.

In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.

Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Not at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously----

Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.

Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is it your recollection that you did?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that.

Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event that first John and then you joined the service?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the limited amount of funds that she had coming in.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your service pay to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was?

Mr. OSWALD. 1952?

Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard.

Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single.

Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has.

Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John married? Do you recall the year?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51.

Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. New York City.

Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess.

I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer now to return to this.

You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.

Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military career?

Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air Wing.

I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the aviation division.

From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I attended metalsmith school.

From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea.

Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From when to when?

Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of 1954.

Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines----

Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955.

Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can give that first, with your brother Lee--his writing you, you writing him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.

In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.

Mr. JENNER. 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was----

Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee--that is the period of time they were in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Living there.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?

Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place--I do not recall the address.

Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?

Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.