Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in the Russian language for his benefit.

And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that this had occurred.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read.

On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964, there is an article there----

Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis, correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21, which I would like to put into the record.

Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record----

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it pertinent to this particular point?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner. But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the record, or make a statement into the record at this time.

Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press.

And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the record at this point.

Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second, please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same manner in which Robert Oswald has testified.

Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I think it is fair to the Commission.

And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like to have this article inserted in the record.

Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964.

Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on February 22.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, particularly his testimony to the Commission.

And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation, and I have stated this to the press.

And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission.

And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from someone on the Commission's staff.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of leaking, and many ways of leaking.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too strong.

But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously been given to the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further----

Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I have been with both of you most of the time.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it is reprehensible.

Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice.

Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception?

Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way.

Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he appeared to be under a strain."

"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962."

Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article.

There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's records.

Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' testimony.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the Commission by Robert Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the witness about that prior to that time.

Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before the morning, afternoon and evening sessions.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the witness.

And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice.

I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has not given any statements to the press nor have I.

Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to, as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the hearings.

The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss the proceedings.

Am I correct, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.

Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until such time as he is released from that oath.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir.

When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory, the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory, who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul Gregory, and would be paid for it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I think you said.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour.

I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee Oswald on that occasion.

I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their Russian friends?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?

Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your impression was that this was not arising for the first time that evening.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove around Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least somewhat before this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and Marina, and their Russian friends?

Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street, some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr. Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously had related to a subsequent period.

Mr. JENNER. That may well be.

I was not here when Marina testified.

It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries on this subject.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was Mr. Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately 20 or 21 years of age.

Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met Paul Gregory.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or implied, at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark that led to that conclusion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory arose?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I recall, was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source, the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use of the Russian language on the part of someone else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct.

I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave, were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the facility or use of the Russian language by someone else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your brother in their home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire whether any of these names are familiar to you.

Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons:

Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness first.

Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any of the following persons:

One, George Senator?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is also unfamiliar to you.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

If you would like, may I suggest that you read the entire list and if any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson, alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee McDonald, also known as Joy Dale.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your family, including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were acquainted with any of these people?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your mother and your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in the Dallas-Fort Worth area:

The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23, 1963--is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. It is, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list.

The Bullpen Drive-in; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign Club.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these establishments.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been in any of these establishments?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating liquor?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, or did not have any?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a social drinker?

That is, were you present when others might have been having a social drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an intoxicating liquor?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to November 23, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type of alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the present time.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. And has it been just an occasional drink, purely social drinking?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed, and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of milk.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but this was prior to November 23, 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, the nightclub circle?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did include myself in that statement, did you not?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other western and detective type series programs on television.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted with Mr. Williams.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses, bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers?

You know what a bouncer is?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people.

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would be repetitious.

What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I believe was also part of a gun club.

And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice range.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places reputedly frequented by homosexuals?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy attitude?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and homosexuals?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular question.

Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you answering the questions with that in mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman, but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it.

Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a short time in October 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have no information on this subject.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were unacquainted with this gentleman.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat.

Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of papers, are you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the pistol?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect to the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr. Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that answer.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and affiliations?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did you not, and in Russian matters?

Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me.

Mr. DULLES. By Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention.

Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines particularly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent.

Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being introduced to them, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and when it first arose?

Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be well taken care of. And at that time we left.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr. Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me, as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister.

Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether Marina did any shopping on her own?

Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir.

It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16 blocks into downtown Fort Worth.

It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that apparently she did not have any other difficulty.

It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself.

Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or stores by Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963.

Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the child, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. That was afterward.

Mr. DULLES. That was afterward?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance.

In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for----

Mr. JENNER. June of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my knowledge----

Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is found in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion.

Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed.

Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed?

Mr. OSWALD. Surprised----

Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk.

Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous reaction on her part?

Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and anyone accompanying you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the spontaneity.

Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both?

Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both.

If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I usually purchased groceries from.

Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around the town?

Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she selected some items.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee leave her money?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not?

Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not.

Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this early stage of her being in this country.

Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified, I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that.

Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new surroundings?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied, window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large appliances at this time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of clothing for little June or for herself?

Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as related by my mother to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. It is not.

Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that your mother was opposed to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you unequivocally her opposition?

Give us those circumstances, please.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least having objections to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. In what period?

Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House?

Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I think they had a room and moved out.

Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel yesterday.

Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right.

My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November 23, 1963----

Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday.

Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary.

Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the page to which you have reference now?

Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe."

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves moved to Executive House.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn.

Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the Executive Inn?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people?

Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November 23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex., she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about it again.

Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November 24.

Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in the same party.

Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they are recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina and your mother?

Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that.

Mr. JENNER. Are you sure?

Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair.

Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered.

Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir?

Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service men on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the memory of your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina, did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion, or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also.

Mr. JENNER. In addition?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary.

Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary.

Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you would like to add to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not.

Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn, and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret Service agents.

Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first?

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they were not attempting to influence Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any impression in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state it?