Chapter XX: Part 20

I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this, many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected.

I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony, sir.

I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned.

Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy, and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that."

I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete tape recording or question and answer.

I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I stated previously, which took a few minutes.

I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned, sir at Six Flags.

I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have previously stated that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr. Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you just a few questions about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to.

Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr. Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by this.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this?

Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this interview.

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you did not give this interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr. Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself.

And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough for me to tell you a little more?

The CHAIRMAN. About this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her, then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was not this testimony the first 3 days.

I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has been changing to a different personality.

Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl, I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook.

Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely.

She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so that it can be heard, if you wish.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why.

The CHAIRMAN. May I see this.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the tape recorder.

Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down.

Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly.

I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels' recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened. I have some other evidence.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never questioned and answered.

The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are exactly what you have told us.

Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not news to anybody.

And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference.

Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer?

For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different questions and answers.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these things public.

These things have been made public.

Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded.

I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly, I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when Robert cried and that ended that testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step out. That is perfectly all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself, about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer is to your question.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(Playing of tape recording.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13 and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure, but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two discrepancies so far as dates.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your voice on the tape?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours.

Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear "Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes approximately at the Inn of Six Flags.

I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours that I talked at this press club.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. At the press club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a little child crying all during the rest of the testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where you gave your press conference?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there.

What they can do with that tape, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at the Fort Worth Press Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes at the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we play for just a few minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 minutes, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I say. They splice.

Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to splice in each one of those questions.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth while, yes, sir, I realize that.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me."

Is that remark in this any place?

Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I have testified was approximately 10 minutes.

Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over 2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you already have here.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this place as it was at this hotel, was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the same voices are in it there?

(Transcription played.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor that he put me on there.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his voice, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part.

Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes.

Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your voice.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you think there is any need for any more?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it.

Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we will just have to leave it where it is.

I don't see any other answer to it.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.)

Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with the photostatic copies that have been marked.

Mr. DOYLE. I have.

Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are correct, of the originals, is that agreeable?

Mr. DOYLE. I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say?

Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr. Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly. We know that you responded to this call for public service on a moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that.

My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have finished my job.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think that will be all.

Mr. DOYLE. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both.

Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client?

Mr. DOYLE. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further?

Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you very much for inviting me here.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing this further because I have told important people about this particular incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I am gone not just to ignore what I have said.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we will not pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I have told Mr. Doyle the people.

Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I called Mr. Lane----

The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people?

Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how concerned I was that he was the one.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we have it here in the record now.

We are adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, February 20, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.

The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.

That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.

You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.

Would you state your name for the Commission?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of that State.

The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert Oswald?

Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing.

Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify?

Mr. OSWALD. I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he will step out and get the file.

The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.

And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly.

The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent.

And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.

I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number.

The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February 17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for identification.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make one other statement to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those introduced into evidence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through 275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.

Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that stipulation is for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.

But we have started making copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.

Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.

At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where?

Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation?

Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of sales coordinator.

Mr. JENNER. What city or town?

Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company?

Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.

Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the date of your birth?

Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are?

Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I will be back to be with you.

Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.

Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. The ages?

Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old this April.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer.

Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Your father's full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Edward?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name?

Mr. OSWALD. Claverie.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic.

Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother.

Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am probably in error. A half brother.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't hesitate to do that.

Your half brother's father was whom?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.

Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever seen a picture identified as being John's father.

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir.

And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January 17, 1932.

Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was married a third time, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the address. It was Victor Street.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"----

Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. But she was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.

Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent?

Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed--that is independently from----

Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were attending--would that be elementary school at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would like the background and flavor in which the family lived.

Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, elementary school.

John, of course, started----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir.

Did I ask you where you were born?

Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state that?

Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Excuse the interruption.

Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was a brick school building.

I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as you possibly can.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?

In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were living there all the time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there.

Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.

Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.

We used to refer to it as the BOH.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.

That would be 1942?

Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, is that correct, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.

Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time.

I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the house, but I cannot remember the address.

Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living with your mother.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this early age.

Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were at the Catholic school?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can.

Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I interrupted you--pardon me.

You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to us the nature of that school?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The cafeteria was located----

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir.

The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory.

Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that particular time.

My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian atmosphere.

Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that.

But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have been just a Protestant home.

Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an orphan.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.