Chapter XXIX: Part 29

Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you not?

Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.

Mr. JENNER. You state it.

Mr. DULLES. Was John present?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He was present.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John.

Mr. DULLES. Was he present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and talk with them.

Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The details of it?

Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What details?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His reply was "Don't you know?"

Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday.

Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had--excuse me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our country?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to our country?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New Orleans at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. That same day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?

In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right.

Do you remember that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place.

Mr. McKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last question?

Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you before you could make another question.

Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it?

Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question?

(The last question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. In the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night?

Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it?

Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends.

Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very shortly.

Mr. JENNER. That was a social call?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone on that particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November----

Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day.

Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, up to the time of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that.

Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date.

Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

One postcard dated January 10, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.

Did you receive any other correspondence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What date?

Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.

Did you receive any other correspondence from him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.

The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written him approximately the first week of March 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if you made one, did you retain a copy?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us.

Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?

Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there?

Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to----

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you were residing in Malvern, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.

Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, to approximately September 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.

All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with Lee rather?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired it or she did?

Mr. OSWALD. During that period?

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee.

Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it?

Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there.

Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me.

Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of either of them to Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.

Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom.

Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."

Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your presence and your wife's presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had returned from Russia did this conversation take place?

Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina and the child.

His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, 1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his family when I came through town.

Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you?

Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.

Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately 30 miles away.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.

In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.

Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind?

Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps----

Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That you testified about.

Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated----

Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or three requests?

Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife?

No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital difficulties?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.----

Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it?

Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.

I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the examination in that respect.

Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.

Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not.

Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention?

Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.

Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy----

Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from your knowledge of him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I think on this record.

Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.

Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were away?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the service?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us.

Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time.

One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from Russia?

Was he still of that retiring nature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people.

Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my office.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De Mohrenschildt.

I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women jurors----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.

George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.

Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, remarried and married another M.D.

Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was connected with some blood type ailment.

Mr. JENNER. Leukemia?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.

George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on George De Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.

I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind?

Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 pounds.

Mr. JENNER. Age?

Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian or of the Slavic races.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?

Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy in that assassination?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was occupying?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and including, the 23d of November, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962----

Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.

Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name.

Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?

Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments?

Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to----

Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of Representative Ford's questions at the moment.

Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November 23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were?

Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was present----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". Do you mean you are speculating?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base that belief.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.

Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be.

Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me----

Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man known as Jack Ruby.

Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me----

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret Service man?

Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man?

Mr. DULLES. The FBI man.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.

Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her by an FBI man.

Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man----

Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.

Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963----correction, prior to November 24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, 1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.

However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, were abnormal reactions.

Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, 1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion on that at this time.

Mr. JENNER. One way or the other?

Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. Will you identify him, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, or vice versa.

Mr. JENNER. It is Peter.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in June, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with them in his native Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe he was by himself.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you temporarily?

Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee----

Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me.

Mr. JENNER. Lee to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that----

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact.

Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. Gregory visited your home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?

Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did read----

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't know whether it exists?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it?

Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general remembrance of this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia approximately----

Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to that time.

Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that?

Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.

Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency?

Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. Gregory as a possible source?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment?

Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory existed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or at least approximately then?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina primarily?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with Lee or with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other close friends of Lee's?

Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.

Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of '62?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but I do not recall that he did.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the house.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State University, at which he was studying the Russian language.

And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or with Marina in Russian on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. He did with both.

Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?