Chapter V: Part 5

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the November 1 interview when that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's notebook.

Mr. RANKIN. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18?

Mrs. OSWALD. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address in this notebook.

This is mine.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us--is it a long notation by you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in Minsk while I went on vacation.

Mr. RANKIN. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. The majority, mostly.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is noted down by others.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of notes?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. He started it in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it.

Mr. RANKIN. I would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.

I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to Agent Hosty.

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number.

Mr. RANKIN. And the telephone number?

The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's----

Mrs. OSWALD. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address.

Mr. RANKIN. Are all in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, Exhibit 18?

Mrs. OSWALD. After the first visit.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, November 1, with the FBI agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, I told him about it.

By the way, on that day he was due to arrive.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on November 1?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30--comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.

Mr. RANKIN. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of the other man beside Agent Hosty?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name and the date.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the FBI agent and the interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.

He said that he would telephone them--I don't know whether he called or not--or that he would visit them.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was more, but I don't remember now.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, during this period of time----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked whether Lee was doing that here.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that question?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the FBI during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas after he got his job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he was doing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place--supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to photography. And he went there in the morning and then--on a Saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, before noon.

It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the 8th--elections--were there elections on that day?

Mr. RANKIN. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day?

Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that Saturday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and buy a few things.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. Hutchison?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever shop there with your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. We never went just Lee and I.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the three of you--Mrs. Paine and you and your husband go together to shop?

Mrs. OSWALD. And her children.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market?

Mrs. OSWALD. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this market?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't have such a check.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a check?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving?

Mr. RANKIN. It is in Irving.

Mrs. OSWALD. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have been with him.

The CHAIRMAN. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

_Wednesday, February 5, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English language to some extent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do understand.

Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern Methodist University. Is there anything to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by anyone?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would try to translate them into English.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I have not been in contact with any Russians.

Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI agent or translator were present, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that experience?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think.

At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who do not speak Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service people were there, too, were they not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for you as they did?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been with them?

Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for the Secret Service people to be there with you and that you liked that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that satisfactory to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very badly and stopped me from doing something.

I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later translated into English that all of this was not the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not satisfactory to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to.

Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that.

Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?

Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to someone during that period of time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Everything depended only on me.

Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see someone, you were always able to do that, were you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend.

Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you wanted to, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for herself, rather than for me.

Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for their attention towards me.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your mother-in-law now?

Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.

I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I do not want her to cripple them.

Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time.

Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I visited there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have you seen her since the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe any difference in her attitude towards you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed?

Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.

Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met with her every day I could see--I was able to see the change. At least if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me.

There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one understood her.

Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with her and to listen to scandals every day.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything.

Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that that would get across and I would understand.

Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the press.

The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed her children to look this way and look that way. And the first photographs that appeared were of me with her children.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red Cross before that date?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the note?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this organization.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your husband was referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think that you might have told. You have described that.

Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?

Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not have confided such things.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the money to repay that amount?

Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven months we were paying off this debt.

Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange. But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how we existed.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle the finances----

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we were economizing.

No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together.

Mr. RANKIN. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy what you needed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, for you to spend alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it.

Mr. RANKIN. How much were those amounts?

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, I want to add something.

You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a month--I forgot. Excuse me--I will do it today.

For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I am not sick.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy clothing for yourself?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for me. But in America this is no problem.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, clothes for an entire season.

Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the buying of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the----

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought some.

Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall that that was a holiday?

Mrs. OSWALD. November 11?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were elections.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a Monday--refreshing your memory in that regard.

Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what he did during that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he doing any reading at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was typing. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know what he was typing?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was the envelope----

Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified?

Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and Kostin, it was that envelope.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings it back.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas to Irving at any time during that week?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend.

Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and didn't come.

Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was at work. He couldn't have been there.

Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of November. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, he didn't come that weekend.

But on the 13th he was not in Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to refresh your memory again.

Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't come--that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a quarrel over the fictitious name.

By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had wanted to come, he had telephoned.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming?

Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I won't."

Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the fictitious name?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I hung up and would not talk to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now this fictitious name."

I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people were to find out that he had been in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, and when the landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from some country other than Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not be afraid or ashamed of it.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing.

Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name Hidell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Where?

Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Where?

Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a fictitious name given.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name?

Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it would be discovered anyhow.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume that. I cannot know it.

Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of any other time your husband was using an assumed name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?

Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you knew, while you were there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the arrest or after.

Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.

Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time.

Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time.

Yes--twice he did clean it.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?

Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband call you at all by telephone?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on Sunday, and he was not there.

Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he was known by another name.

On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on Thursday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as his last name?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before.

Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he was very upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.

On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.

He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself--that I would manage.

Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee was in the garage.

But I didn't see it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in the garage, what time of the day?

Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the light remained on until morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now.

We will recess now for 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?

Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it.

Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't wait to find out what else would he think of.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that he was more important.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in two or three days.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.

Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had come that this became more significant for her.

Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the light?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At least that is what she said to me. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went to bed at 9 o'clock?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her room and then Lee went. He was there after her.

Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and 10? Was that what you thought?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light.

Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.

But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located?

Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left.

Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor.

It was always in the same place.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play.

Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. I only assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you Thursday was to make up?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not irreconcilable.

Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. Is that it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you and your husband getting along quite well?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted to get something better.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his work in the newspaper he would always point it out.

Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". Do you know what he meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine was coming between him and you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband?

Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she thought. But she didn't say anything bad.

Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.

Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child going, but also his going with you, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change?

Mrs. OSWALD. At one time--I don't remember whether he was working at that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, "It would be better if I go with you."

Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't start to question him about why.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him alone?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all staying in this country and getting along together?

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.

Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any.

Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he didn't come--he was in jail.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, just wanted to make up.

Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.

Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when he went to bed he was very upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination the next day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I didn't think about it. Now I think so.

Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did you ask him why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for the weekend.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans to do anything?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the Paines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it.

Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June--and for the children.

This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet.

I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.

Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in the evening meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert.

Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive.

The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal?

Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30.

Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?

Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is all.

Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.

On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort Worth area?

Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see him. I asked him how this could be done.

But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any further on that subject.