Chapter XII: Part 12

"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want to tell you what happened."

"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here."

Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things together. We have to get you out of here."

I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we have to pack things."

"Hurry up."

I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called."

I told him exactly.

So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him that while I am gathering up the things.

"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here."

I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a television in this room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the television off. The same thing over and over."

And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what happened to my son.

We had the television off.

So we did not know.

But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and run.

So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us out of here.

Mr. RANKIN. They didn't say anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the other. The diapers are wet."

I was kind of having my way about this.

So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around.

I am ahead of my story.

Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given to me. They gave me some money. I took it out----

Mr. RANKIN. That is the first time you looked at it?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, and I had no need for money. Wait a minute--I am wrong. Yes.

Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald--didn't you say you had washed your uniform?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. When you washed your uniform, didn't you----

Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was wrong. The first time--it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store--I gave him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in--the first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities that Marina and I needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time.

And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went downstairs to pay the bill.

Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those men left two women stranded.

Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it back?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I had. I kept it in my pocket.

Mr. RANKIN. When you washed your uniform----

Mrs. OSWALD. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry.

So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money I have to get out of the hotel--I don't know if I am going to get help--so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important papers right now on my person.

I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after you paid the bill there----

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert paid the bill.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened next?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and checked us out. Then the Secret Service----

Mr. DULLES. Could we have the time when you checked out?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the amount of the bill?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars--about $48, I believe. That is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what Robert told me.

And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about 40-some-odd dollars.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret Service agents in the front.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you go someplace?

Mrs. OSWALD. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us--as soon as we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's mother-in-law's house."

Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They are dairy people--Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas.

And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever find it."

I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would not go.

I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this was after----

Mrs. OSWALD. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car.

Mr. RANKIN. And this was after your son was killed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, yes, but they didn't know this.

Mr. RANKIN. And Robert didn't know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. They kept it from us--I guess being women. Marina and I did not even know he was shot.

I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security reasons----

Mr. DULLES. If the time is 11:30----

Mr. RANKIN. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought.

Mr. DULLES. You said 11:30 to 12.

Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately that time.

Mr. DULLES. It might not have taken place.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I don't know this.

This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee was shot. Not now--I do not know this.

Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to ask.

If you will bear with me, I can go into----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. You never did?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and read papers. Marina and I--I had two sick babies there. There was a doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were not telling us anything. They were not interested in us.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a hotel, you could be protected there, what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going to give me my way. But we needed clothes--Marina and the baby needed clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving.

We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I feel sure my son was shot.

Mr. RANKIN. How far away is that from this Executive Inn?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would think--now, this is just hearsay. But I would think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles.

When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. And there were cars all around.

As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has been shot."

And I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

They brought Marina into the house.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew that?

Mrs. OSWALD. It came over--I thought he had the radio in the car, Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now telling us this, Marina and I.

He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot."

I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot."

So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she wanted.

And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina.

So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home now--remember.

So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, "Do not repeat. Do not repeat."

I said, "My son is gone isn't he?"

And he didn't answer.

I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to meditate."

He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired."

Mr. RANKIN. Now, which agent told you this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.--Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? Was there another Secret Service agent with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He went into the home--he escorted Marina into the chief of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other agent that I want to know the name of.

Wait just a minute.

I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your son's death?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing up to the time--it all fits in--which was 1 o'clock or 1:30.

As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone."

We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted.

They gave us coffee.

And then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know.

We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this chief of police of Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. What paper is that?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Star Telegram paper.

All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not--believe me, gentlemen, this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture of the way my son was shot.

Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the shooting?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th--as I told you.

Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the television.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. That is another story.

Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see Lee, too."

And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up."

I said, "No, I want to see Lee now."

Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee."

They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter.

So she said, "I want to see Lee, too."

They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it with the two women. So they decided to pacify us.

We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard--he was driving the car--"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing."

I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take me to the hospital to see my son."

Gentlemen, I require the same privilege.

So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital.

"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have you under protection. We cannot protect you."

I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am going to see my son."

Mr. Gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have just lost a son.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering this girl's life, and the life of these two children."

I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and over--that these Russian people are always considering this Russian girl. He snapped at me.

I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son."

And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to see Lee."

After Mr. Gregory said that--"I, too, want to see Lee."

So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the police in the hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 and 3 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sunday, November 24th.

Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is that we have to have an autopsy on a body."

I said, "Yes, I understand."

And Marina understood.

Marina is a registered pharmacist.

So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood.

And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much better if you would see him after he was fixed up."

I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son now."

Marina--as I am trying to say, she understands English--she said, "I want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying.

We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table--a table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to me--I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes."

Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son.

So on the way, leaving the body in the room--I am in the room----

Mr. RANKIN. You were satisfied it was your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted to make sure it was my son.

So while leaving the room, I said to the police--"I think some day you will hang your heads in shame."

I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide this if I can."

And, with that, I left the room.

Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. But that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at Parkland Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way our life has intervened.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No--I am always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I would say anything like that.

And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a Marxist.

So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my son buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, forget it."

So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a minute."

So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked the police if he could talk to Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. The chaplain never told you anything more about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert say anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.

Mr. RANKIN. But you are?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.

But Lee was more left handed than I am.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe me--with documents and everything.

A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far--I would like to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything.

It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to you.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I have some fresh water, please?

Mr. RANKIN. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you know something about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know about that.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. But I have a story on that.

Mr. RANKIN. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are talking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. About Robert knowing about the gun--I have already said that.

About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting.

Mr. RANKIN. You said there was another gun matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a long, long story.

The CHAIRMAN. I think she has gotten to the point----

Mrs. OSWALD. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't you think--about the gun?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed.

The CHAIRMAN. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call to our attention, things that you know about?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the particular story that I have said this morning--you mean of Lee?

This is where it gets confusing.

Representative FORD. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What happened then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. This is interesting.

After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them."

And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts of Arlington, Tex. They took us there.

And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important--if we are going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because that is a very long, important story to this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. How far is that from Dallas--the Six Flags Inn?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is near Arlington, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had forgotten one very important factor in the story.

I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that Lee had a gun.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22, when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it.

Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr. Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left, that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement.

Was there something else I told you?

Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me, ma'am.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know whether that was the gun or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as I said before--that was it.

Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving. And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. Correct.

Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags.

I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.

I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. All the papers were at home.

I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were getting the original papers, because I know that each department in the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape.

I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though.

Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there were two other men.

Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date of the funeral--I remember now.

Mr. RANKIN. November 25th?

Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw Robert crying.

Wait, I am ahead of my story.

You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother, where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to come to.

So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington. So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his mother has known all of these years.

So I started.

Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my thoughts have left me, because my son is crying."

I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could not get a minister at my son's grave.

They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard----

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape.

Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."

That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. And that is the only time.

It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. They did not want to hear anything from me.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?

Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."

If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And that is the point that has bothered me.

Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have 20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying?

Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's funeral.

What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1 hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see, Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery.

They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made clear--because that is the part I cannot understand.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the right to say what shall be done?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now in a concrete vault?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the ministers.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald, today."

You see, I am expected to work on Sunday.

So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I am sorry.

Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called upon another minister, because there would have been many, many ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and help the sorrowing family.

Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on the sofa.

Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not.

So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be concerned about".

And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man right here----

Mr. RANKIN. You are pointing to----

Mrs. OSWALD. This agent right here. You may pass the picture around.

Mr. RANKIN. The figure on the left hand of the picture you have just produced?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse."

Now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold me.

This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we compromised for chapel services.

However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture. Here is another picture of the chapel.

Mr. RANKIN. Before we go on----

Mrs. OSWALD. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery, we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert cried bitterly.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can I interrupt a minute?

We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. The photograph I have just referred to is Exhibit 165, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 165.

Mr. RANKIN. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand corner of that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. And he stands right behind you there in that picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. RANKIN. Isn't he a Secret Service man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Secret Service man--they are both Secret Service.

Representative FORD. That was the point I wanted to make, because she had said he was an FBI agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you do not have.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the removing of the casket?

Mrs. OSWALD. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel. But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went through, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166 were received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture of them taking the casket into the chapel?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, while the television was on continuously--I have stated before I never did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the radio.

He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President? Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used it--nobody saw him use it."

He snapped back and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, we know that he shot the President."

I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me ever since I have been here."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for 30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you."

I said, "Let him keep his personal opinions to himself. He is on a job."

Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina.

We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting ready for the funeral.

Marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses. "Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was not happy with it.

I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It will be all right."

And we had 1 hour in order to get ready for the funeral.

I said, "We will never make it. Marina is so slow."

She said, "I no slow. I have things to do."

I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and has always talked broken English.

Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That is why he was allowed in the bedroom.

While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, 2 years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good children--was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina, don't do that." And this agent--I wish I knew his name--snapped at me and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald.

Now, why did this man do these things?

Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far as Marina was concerned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, what do you mean when you say improper?

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as I can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot.

The CHAIRMAN. With who?

Mrs. OSWALD. With Marina and Mrs. Paine--the two women. Lee was set up, and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Which ones are you referring to?