Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it. Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one that knows this.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think it was in regard to marksmanship.

Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag.

This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type schooling. And I even remarked about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had a television----

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me. Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I like, too."

My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that."

That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was the only thing. So that satisfied me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about.

While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it further.

And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board. I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy. Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me to remember everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to have.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important to you.

When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now, Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was 3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and everything. I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the gun from Lee, gave him $10.

Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you know, is very important.

Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee is not guilty of Officer Tippit.

Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease. It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane has all of this. We have been investigating night and day.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see."

Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw Lee, Marina and the child?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be escorted out of the building by a policeman.

Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is.

Mr. RANKIN. That is----

Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first thing I saw.

Now, they think this is Lee.

No, sir, I do not.

Everybody thinks this is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the side of the doorway, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show any face? It shows the arms over the head?

Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air.

Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. And this woman and child could possibly be Marina.

Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters. And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully mark on Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and state their names.

I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people are.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee Oswald being there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this. They see the man next to him.

Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He has the same clothes on as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one in between, would that be right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now marked with the identification.

(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission Exhibit No. 203.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not.

But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we have come up with some very----

The CHAIRMAN. Some very what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us about.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator. Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder of my son.

And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of expert opinions.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy. And people have come to our rescue.

When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to come before the Commission.

So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation.

We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand, who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over.

I am not saying it correctly.

But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it. And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a living. He is an expert.

And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr. Doyle has seen my letters and read a few.

We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the Commission, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are making?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our public support by bringing these matters before the public, because we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more to it. And they are not satisfied.

We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in a home with a family.

As far as that, I know nothing else about this.

The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen, if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you about myself."

I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his way of life."

We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life. A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his right to be a Communist. That is his way of life.

I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir.

If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of life and try to prove my son is innocent.

The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for identification.)

Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being the picture that was shown to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the picture.

This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut.

Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four, cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir.

Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room, on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or anything, because we did not sit down and watch television.

Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the 25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture of the man that the FBI agent showed me."

And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot your son."

Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was said.

Now, that is very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked up, was a picture in the newspaper?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture before.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me.

Now, this is what I want to know.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture in the paper?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was full.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy.

As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This picture I saw, the same picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby.

Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is the picture of the man that shot your son."

But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question all about this.

And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or anything.

The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance.

I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling you gentlemen.

Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures.

It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your knowledge.

Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked several people to investigate this for me.

Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen. Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland of Fort Worth, Tex.

Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life."

I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I will continue not being liked, sir.

So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth, Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she married?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone.

But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings, diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known defector. So I quit that job.

Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate.

But I have not heard anything about it.

Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely.

Stanley or Katya Skotnicki?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver Spur?

Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever.

Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in the Silver Spur in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these places.

Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You recognize that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he spent time there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr. Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back to Patrolman Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from the Marine Corps.

Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L. H."

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the one he got the trophy with.

Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see there in the book when you first found it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced.

(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239 and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy----

Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute.

Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of money--tremendous for donations.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows, sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from, because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous lot of money.

And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your investigation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information. He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to continue to arrive at the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February 14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that were wrong in it--do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if you remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House. And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C. White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President."

Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right here, sir. You don't know about the telegram.

Here is a copy of the telegram.

"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald."

And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White House when you received it to anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well, if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I agreed with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a correct quote?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies.

I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I should not write the President.

I made a special appeal to the President.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like this?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that.

Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were talking to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it. Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information?

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of the pictures in that magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you can.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay for the picture--the same man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part of the story. That is not the story.

This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know.

"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed. But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story?

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent?

The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather.

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my personal?

Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the question----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough.

I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that.

Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you.

So again, it would be completely up to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my personal----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these notes here, and didn't go through that.

The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper.

Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is so peculiar about this whole thing.

I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian, which I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in Russian. It stated in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story, now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And I will help in every way possible.

If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now.

From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth, Tex.

So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is going to shoot General Walker.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in her mind that her husband had killed the President.

And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before.

Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed.

Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin.

Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know.

But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar with.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has lied.

Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you found anything about that was untrue that Marina said?

Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the Commission, because they are rumors.

But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that is my understanding there.

Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have read in the papers.

Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was an agent of anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent because I felt like he would not tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him.

Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over.

And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to the Inn of the Six Flags.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of you that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to the doctor.

I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said "You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do something like that, and not tell me about it."

So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well, Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't need my part of them."

This is a normal reaction.

Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave, accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches.

He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the children have an education."