Chapter XXI: Part 21

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I don't know where I read that, but I recollect that.

Is that the case, do you remember?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this school--for what period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan Home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe that, please.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about this--seeing Lee too often at that time.

Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly.

But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?

Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit.

Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last year that we were there.

Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say very young--say under 3 years old.

I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in the home?

If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New Orleans town district and visit your mother.

Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit mother, and we always took Lee with us.

Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home?

Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to.

Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days?

Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas.

Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my mind that he did not get along with anybody.

Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for going into that.

Mr. OSWALD. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his age, is what you would describe as normal?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you would like to report?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to be with mother again, all of us together.

As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, a large two-story white--I feel sure it was a frame white house. The garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the garage.

Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of order.

Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.

Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she already arranged for employment in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas.

And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native of Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he was at that time--I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I remember it--employed by the Texas Electric Co.

Mr. JENNER. At what office?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas Power and Light, perhaps--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had you become--you boys become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time of your moving to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you moved to Dallas.

Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother John first, because Lee was not yet of school age.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four blocks from the house.

Mr. DULLES. What was that name?

Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that.

Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant one?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to those limitations--normal and pleasant?

Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in school myself, to make myself clearly understood.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there?

When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the school hours?

Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live there. We lived at home.

Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge--I feel certain she was employed.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on weekends?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if anyone? What was done for his comfort?

Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps----

Mr. JENNER. A day nursery?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to the day nursery or bringing him back.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John?

Mr. OSWALD. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that school year.

Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your mother's home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home occasionally?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions.

Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that?

Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what school?

Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945.

Mr. JENNER. You and John?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married shortly after the end of the school year.

Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be--June of '44?

Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45.

Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl--what was his full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A."

Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in Dallas at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the expenses at the Academy.

Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at that particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not working.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did finance your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in this military school in Mississippi.

Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home were still intact?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the home was paid for or anything.

Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt.

Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident that the Commission is not interested in any speculation.

Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating.

Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life?

Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small.

Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, following the marriage.

Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that a school where you lived?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You lived there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Day and night?

Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year.

Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the military school?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles.

Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss.

Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends.

Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the home on Victor Street?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?

Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45?

Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46.

Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained at the military school.

Mr. OSWALD. Three school years.

Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947.

So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct.

Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the third year.

Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene.

Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in divorce, as I recall it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the academy.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at the moment.

Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during the period of time you were at the military school?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year----

Mr. JENNER. Chronologically.

Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona.

Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house--I recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk was, but he found out.

Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

As I indicated, at that time----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier.

They were in Massachusetts at that time.

This would be the second year.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the termination of the stay in Boston?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't recall where.

I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.

Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.

Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?

Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the academy. We did come to Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?

Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to Boston, Mass.

Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at that time.

Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't indicate that they will never be given to the press.

Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the Commission saw fit.

Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, Tex.

How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a half at that particular house.

Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another home in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.

Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.

Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had rented that house, or leased it.

Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this smaller home.

Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was not employed? She was home?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed at any time I am aware of.

Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of a mother to her son, Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe personally on this subject, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for Lee during that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. No household help?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view?

He was 7 or 8 years old now.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, was 6 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Six years old.

Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary school, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school?

Mr. JENNER. No--children generally.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to elementary school.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school age--commencement age was 7 years old.

Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?

Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military academy--where was Lee?

Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean the mandatory attendance age?

Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to.

Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were normally sent to kindergarten in those days.

Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this period, let's call it the military school period because we have identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.

He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not.

Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John were attending military school?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or areas that they had traveled during this period.

Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was Benbrook School.

Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. I believe it is closed down now.

Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from letters from your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother relationships?

Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.

Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to 8-year-old period.

Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap.

A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that is quite a gap.

Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home during the summer vacations?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of time--both John and I--with Lee.

I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most of the time.

I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? Personality-wise, for example.

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure, the second Christmas we were there from military school.

Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.

Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no difficulties with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.

Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have when they are naughty?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or did that only come later?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.

Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we attended there--this would be the summer of 1947.

Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a minute. It is now 11 o'clock.

Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. Jenner, with your questions.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the witness?

Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am.

Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the persons who purported to have signed?

Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law firm, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.

And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. McKenzie's office.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, to my partner, Henry Baer.

Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether it was signed in your presence and where.

Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this letter was signed.

Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported to have signed it?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.

I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's secretary.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?

Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the following day.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became acquainted with Mrs. Ford?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.

I would like to correct that.

It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became acquainted with Mrs. Ford.

At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. Thorne, and Mrs. Ford?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present.

Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the following day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence?

Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford.

Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks ago today?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.

Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of this.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here.

Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago.

Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us the date so we will have it in the record now?

Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my home in Denton, Tex.

On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my residence at Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number?

Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274.

Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of the exhibit, does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures?

Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a series?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You are not familiar with her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. The next signature?

Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second page.

Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. 275.

Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages?

Mr. OSWALD. Two pages.

Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page?

Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and in order as they appear----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature.

Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar as your familiarity with her signature is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. That is all right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of which I have just finished having identified.

Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler?

Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits?

Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits and indicate their content first.

I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and 279.

If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages.

Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description.

Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them?

Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for doing so--on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps he should start at that page.

Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion.

Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose signature it is.

Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. The next under that?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed, appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the Commission.

And there is a third signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney.

Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few moments ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not.

Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are they not, that are being identified?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner, state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original.

Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me.

I retract that statement.

Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a signed copy, and it was an original copy.

Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, since it is addressed to him.

Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these signatures, do they?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the duplicate copies.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at the time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was signed, and was signed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions?

Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions.

Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have gone through them all, and then admit them all?

Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because they are of a series, if I have your permission.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, 1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and consisting of two pages.

Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature.