Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when?

Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.

Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. On that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.

What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything----

Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.

Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?

Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?

Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that.

Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.

Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do.

Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.

Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.

Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.

Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?

Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.

I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.

Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission.

Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. It is in the record.

Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.

Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?

Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.

For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.

Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not.

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir----

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?

Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Will you tell us about it? What led to it and----

Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.

Am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain?

Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21.

Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what?

Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.

I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please.

No, sir. I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living.

Mr. JENNER. And what city was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?

Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not.

Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

If I might make one correction, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959?

Mr. JENNER. I am.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?

Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or his going to Russia?

Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.

Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers.

Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.

Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please?

Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."

Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.

Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."

Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.

Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?

Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.

Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.

Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.

I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.

Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir.

Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason?

Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any----

Mr. JENNER. Any representative.

Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.

Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that.

Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.

Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.

Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.

Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?

Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification.

Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying.

Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really.

Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.

Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.

Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia.

Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?

Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.

Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?

Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?

Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain----

Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired----

Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.

Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?

In other words, approximately five weeks later?

Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.

This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.

Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.

If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.

Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.

The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired----

Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had.

Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him?

Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.

However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can----

Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.

Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.

And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet----

Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow.

Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.

(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Saturday, February 22, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present was Allen W. Dulles, member.

Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret Service at this time?

Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency that he does recall at this time.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is pertinent.

Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see what it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please.

Excuse me.

There was one other Government agency that interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Had he called you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir.

My wife----

Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately 7 or 7:30 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. And you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name was?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not recall what his name was.

It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or four questions, in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet Union, and quite surprised, I do recall, myself that he was not aware of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the Soviet Union.

And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald.

I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an "ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring, was Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed that they were planning to come back, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Of what nature--her age?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had evidence that she was married to your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her specifically?

Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in Russia, and had been in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's reported reasons for going to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified.

I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been in touch with each other?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a citizen of Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent upon what your answers to the previous questions were?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions he was referring to when he spoke to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your occupation, and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical appearance?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10, perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, I requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it was approved.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State Department being in contact with me.

And I might further add that at this particular time, after the Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency.

Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that period.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten now just how you phrased it.

Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?"

Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of the United States Government with your brother, after his return from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that question, that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street.

Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the agents?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean the middle of August?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of August 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is, did it come through your brother initially to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that they did want to speak to him.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he volunteer it?

Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now.

Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your brother related this to you?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home?

Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street--either the afternoon or the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me, sir, that the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile, in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes Street--is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my recollection of that particular occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when he recited the event?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any further comment about that particular event at that time.

Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point.

This is slightly on a different subject.

Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not.

Mr. JENNER. I think not.

Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the house on Mercedes Street.

Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about that?

Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth.

If I may, sir----

Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident?

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes Street address----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents with your brother in the automobile near their home?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a certain amount per hour for this instruction.

Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information?

Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on Mercedes Street, I was informed----

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth, Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her time, and for the instruction.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you that, in addition to yourself and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent to her?