Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.

Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?

Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.

Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.

Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?

Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was taken at the New York Zoo.

Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother Lee, as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after I had the film developed.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what?

Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and 282, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear on those two pages and not the text.

Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir.

Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit 282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of your brother on this 10-day leave.

Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the snapshot you took?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953.

Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was during the summer months.

Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to have been in school at this particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize either or both of those children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the age of your brother at the time that picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where?

Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he would be residing in New York City.

Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in that clothing before?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the time this picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where?

Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age.

To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At what age?

Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old.

Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be--the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or 1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know whether that is one snapshot or two.

Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to identify all three?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages?

Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10.

Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on?

Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify John Edward Pic at the age of 12.

Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right outside, at the side of the house.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures.

Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother.

Mr. JENNER. In the background is what?

Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street.

Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. What is that area?

Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this young man right here--I do not recall his name--I believe his name was Donald. He lived right around the corner from us.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you.

Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper right hand corner on Exhibit 282.

Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person to whom the arrow is pointing?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee or not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little fuzzy.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it?

Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do you recognize that photograph depicted on that page?

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for identification.)

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore that same baby suit.

Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too.

Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 marked as 285.

(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph.

Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or T-shirt, with his hand on his chest?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow.

Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was taken, and where?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been----

Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not?

Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this photograph.

Mr. JENNER. That is the man?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At about what age?

Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the age of 17.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate----

Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. 17.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing to your brother. Thank you.

Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are?

Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken when he was in the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and 289, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the picture.

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of the picture, approximately in the center of the picture.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil?

Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that?

Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he returned from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment.

Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of Alek James Hidell?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, the surname Hidell?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias?

Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one?

Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please.

Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question.

Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit 290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or one very, very similar to it.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over to Mr. Jim H. Martin.

Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in correspondence with your brother at a later moment.

Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a reproduction of a photograph.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?

Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a reproduction since November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex., approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service and Marina Oswald and myself.

Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then?

Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in the room when this photograph was shown.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have identified that bear those exhibit numbers.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292.

Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.

(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of those pages.

Mr. DULLES. That is so noted.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John and his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home during this 10-day stay?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee--put it this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time during their New York visit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the home of your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had arisen while they were living with your brother John's family?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an apartment in the Bronx?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you during the 10-day period you were on leave?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's progress in schooling in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?

Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.

Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special gripes?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your 10-day leave in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother Lee during the 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it.

Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting along quite well.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there between them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous to his mother?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir----

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places. She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there. And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being discourteous--that is why I qualify that.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and you eventually wound up in Korea.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period?

While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences from school which I think took place just the months before you were there--although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 that you visited them there, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not recall that. That did not come up at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all.

Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New York about that than in Texas.

Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate the reaction to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said about it.

Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's name.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible truancy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did you go?

Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. Were you still single?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather than to New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, Tex. And that is where I wanted to live.

Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there?

Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex., ever since?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you got out of the service?

Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of 1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans when you returned from the service in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother?

Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week.

Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind?

Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from Korea in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see your brother at any time during that period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in 1954--January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days there in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did.

Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for 5 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions.

Your brother John--is he alive?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Where is he?

Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. DULLES. He is a half brother.

Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. How old is he?

Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now.

Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems.

Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in any trouble?

Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life.

Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human being?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Representative BOGGS. In every way?

Mr. OSWALD. In every way.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one question, if I may, for the record.

Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off?

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald came back from Russia, when was this?

Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962?

Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from then when was the next time you saw him?

Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail.

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will?

Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass window, and he was on the locked side.

Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right

Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that what you said?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your home for how long a period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks.

Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I think you are quite right. I have a question or two.

Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes.

Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to.

Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly?

Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to Russia. We were just together again.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement it was never brought up.

Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that----

Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it.

Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed politics.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I mean----

Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir.

Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view?

Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I always believed in and I will always believe in it.

Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say.

Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since November 22d.

But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the same opinion that I was.

Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on your upbringing.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was a very good school.

Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss.

Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked about it some.

Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this.

Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters.

Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this afternoon.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to Russia.

Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and returned to a normal life.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was there a change in the man before and after?

Mr. OSWALD. Physically?

Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and general----

Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so forth.

But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen.

Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, but was it pleasant?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show her things that she had never seen before in her life.

Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any feeling----

Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete--and freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this time.

Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy.

Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, would you give us any reason for why he may have done this?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I could not.

Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody.

Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your stepbrother since it happened?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay but we are just trying to establish----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you want to ask him.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any other investigative agency, because----

Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that we discover the truth.

Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this tragic event.

Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not----

Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event could have happened, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November 24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We had to go through the Air Force base where he was located.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then?

Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force.

I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio and the like.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, the 36 hours?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him?

Mr. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards.

Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the assassination?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems or difficulties, or what?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned.

Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in touch.

Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir----

Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason for it.

Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his mother.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch with you, Robert?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch.

Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever have any reason to think that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.

Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22?

Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.

Representative FORD. Can you tell us when?

Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December 1963.

Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal?

Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking to me about this.

Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?

Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.

Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing?