Chapter XI: Front Matter (11)

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; in other words, behind the car, if possible, and up the Main Street ramp on the Main Street side. I believe there was some up there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you don’t know who made that on-the-spot decision, as you recall it?

Chief STEVENSON. I believe possibly Captain Jones, and he talked with, I believe it was, Chief Batchelor. I am not sure as to what the last minute changes were to get them away from the immediate area there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the press people prior to the change were on the east side of the railing and on the ramp down from the east-west ramp leading into the garage parking area proper?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were all east of it, both the north and the south ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of the change of plans which required the bringing up of automobiles to get into the ramp leading up Commerce Street, it is your thought it was necessary to alter that, and that someone did alter them to allow some of the press to be on the ramp leading toward Main Street?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I believe that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, how many were there, do you recall?

Chief STEVENSON. No; I don’t. I would say there were possibly, when I went down the last time immediately before the transfer, I would say there was possibly 20 to 30 back up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any police officers in front of them?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present during the conversation between Chief Curry and Sheriff Decker regarding the matter of who would transfer the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t believe I was in the chief’s office at the time he called Sheriff Decker, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. About when did you learn that the police department would actually accomplish the transfer itself?

Chief STEVENSON. It was shortly after he had talked to him. When he advised Chief Batchelor and I that he had called him, I believe Chief Batchelor was with me. He had called the sheriff, and the sheriff had told him that he understood we were to transfer the prisoner, and he told him if that was his wish, we would. As to what time in the morning that was, I would say that was somewhere around 9 o’clock, Mr. Hubert, the best I recollect.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix it at 9 o’clock?

Chief STEVENSON. Because I know between 9 and 10 after that conversation had taken place, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor and I was in on a part of the discussion of using an armored truck. And Chief Curry instructed Chief Batchelor to see if he could contact an armored truck company who could furnish us one. That was between 9 and 10 when that was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that the conversation between Curry and Batchelor was before that, of course?

Chief STEVENSON. Between Curry and Batchelor?

Mr. HUBERT. And Decker, was before that?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; that was when he found out that we would make the transfer, or when he had advised Chief Batchelor and I that we would.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a change of plans from that, and I would like you to state, if you would, what you know about the change of plans, when it occurred, and so forth. That is to say, the decision not to use the armored car.

Chief STEVENSON. I would say that was made, the first of my knowledge, Mr. Hubert, at approximately 11:10. I went up into the homicide bureau on the third floor. Chief Curry and Lieutenant Pierce were in the homicide bureau. Oswald was there in Captain Fritz’ office. They had been interrogating him. I went into the office. Chief Curry advised me they had decided to use an automobile for the transfer and use the truck as a decoy. The automobile was more maneuverable.

I said, “O.K., sir.” I turned around and went back to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you any reason other than the maneuverability? That was the whole reason?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right. In view of the threats that we had had, they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that if they did encounter a group of people on the streets, they could maneuver the car more easily and get around them. I left and went to the basement to notify the men in the basement; Captain Jones, who was my captain.

I met Chief Lumpkin in the hall, and as we went down on the elevator I advised him of the change. Reached the basement. I advised Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor. Now, I didn’t advise Captain Talbert because I don’t believe I saw Captain Talbert there immediately upon my arrival in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as you know, then the only people who knew of the change of plans was yourself, Chief Curry, Chief Lumpkin, and then you told Batchelor?

Chief STEVENSON. I told Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor and Chief Lumpkin on the way to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the two detectives, Dougherty and Brown, who were to drive the two cars, were they told what their role was to be?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; not of my own knowledge, but I understand they had gotten their instructions before they left the homicide office that Dougherty would drive the car containing Oswald and that Brown would be in the car immediately preceding him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Rio Pierce was told too, I suppose?

Chief STEVENSON. He was instructed to get his car and park it in front of the armored truck as if he was leading the armored truck with the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he aware that the armored truck would not contain Oswald?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; he was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time I was instructed that the change had been decided on to take him in a car and use the truck as a decoy. He was to lead the truck down Elm Street as had been planned. The car bearing Oswald would cut down west on Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Brown and Dougherty got their instructions on the third floor in Fritz’ office?

Chief STEVENSON. In the homicide office; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They went down before you did then?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And their instructions were to get the two cars facing Commerce on the ramp and behind the armored car?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what, if anything, Captain Fritz said when he came out of the jail office immediately prior to the movement of Oswald out of the jail office?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I was not, oh, I would say I was within 25 feet or that far away from Captain Fritz when they emerged from the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember whether he asked if things were clear or made any comment?

Chief STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don’t. I was told that he did make that inquiry of possibly Lieutenant Wiggins, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your thought, Chief, as to what extent the failure of security which occurred was caused by the decision to allow news media into the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be a little difficult question to answer. Of course looking back at it, Mr. Hubert, we can see. But we had, we felt, sufficient officers in there to secure it. And of course looking back on it now, we can say yes. It would have been better for us if we had not had the press down there. What percent it figured, what percent of the blame you could lay to the fact that the press was down there would be very difficult.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any consideration, if any consideration was given, to establishing some security measures with reference to single-man action against the prisoner rather than mob action against the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that all the officers are instructed that in handling any prisoner charged with a serious crime they should watch for anyone and everyone, any act that might look or seem to be of a suspicious nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was thinking particularly with reference to the security of Oswald on the 24th. I mean was any consideration given, to your knowledge, of establishing some security measure against a single-man action?

Chief STEVENSON. None in particular. Nothing more than is general procedure on transfer of a prisoner of that nature, or one who has committed a crime in which some relative or friend might want to take vengeance.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be that everyone be kept away from the prisoner, not be permitted to get to the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any security measures to that end taken, do you know?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that the press, and I didn’t hear this, was informed in the basement that none of them would attempt to move close to the prisoner for the purpose of talking to him or taking photographs.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any consideration was given to using an entirely different route of transfer than through the basement for the purpose of avoiding the crowded condition in the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. If there was, I have no knowledge of it, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any discussion among anybody that the crowded condition in the basement might pose a greater threat by a single man than if the basement were cleared of everybody whatsoever?

Chief STEVENSON. I didn’t hear that subject discussed, I don’t believe; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any suggestion made that the press be bypassed, as it were, and the prisoner removed in some other fashion?

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers immediately prior to the time Oswald appeared who had drawn their side arms?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the first homicide cars may have had shotguns or riot guns in them but were not visible.

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; none were visible, not to my knowledge. I could not see any of them. All of the homicide cars are equipped with rifles and shotguns.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the arrangements for the obtaining of the armored cars?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; Chief Batchelor handled that by telephone. He consulted with me on it, but he handled it by telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present in the basement when the armored car arrived?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the actual shooting did you go down to the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. The last time, I would say some 5, between 5 and 10 minutes, not over that.

Mr. HUBERT. In the plan to transfer Oswald down the elevator to the jail office and in the jail corridor into the automobile waiting on the ramp, was there any arrangement made so that Captain Fritz or others would give a signal or would be given a signal as to when to come through?

Chief STEVENSON. I understand--I didn’t hear this--but they called down from upstairs, notified the jail sergeant that they were leaving the third floor, and that the jail elevator sergeant observed the elevator on its downward journey when he was there in the jail office. When the jail elevator door opened, Captain Fritz stepped out, followed by the men with the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the jail office followed the elevator down, you mean he followed the lights to show the progress?

Chief STEVENSON. Observed it as it came down; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, has there been any discussion between you and I today which has not been covered in this deposition? I mean, did we have any conversation or any discussion today that has not become a part of the recorded deposition?

Chief STEVENSON. You mean our previous deposition?

Mr. HUBERT. No; today.

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is my recollection, that we simply exchanged greetings, but other than that we have not spoken except during the time that your deposition was being taken?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. Do you have anything you want to add or say?

Chief STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don’t know what it would be. I hope I have covered everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF ELGIN ENGLISH CRULL

The testimony of Elgin English Crull was taken at 1:40 p.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of City Manager Elgin E. Crull. Mr. Crull, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crull, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now I understand, sir, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, addressed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I would have to guess. He didn’t stamp it. The letter is dated July the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?

Mr. CRULL. I received it about last Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be July 9?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRULL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CRULL. My name is Elgin English Crull.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. CRULL. Dallas, Tex., at 9424 Hobart.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your office?

Mr. CRULL. City manager, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?

Mr. CRULL. For 12 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man are you, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I am 55. I shall be 56 on the 17th of this month.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Texas?

Mr. CRULL. No; I am a native of Louisville, Ky.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had previous experience in the field of city management?

Mr. CRULL. I have been in the city of Dallas for 25 years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity, prior to becoming city manager?

Mr. CRULL. As an assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. Assistant city manager?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Crull, we would like you to state, first of all, for the record, what are the duties and responsibilities, and so forth, of the city manager of the city of Dallas, the position which you have held and been associated with for some 25 years.

Mr. CRULL. The city manager, under the Dallas Charter, is the chief administrator of the city government, being charged with the overall supervision of most of the departments of the government. There are a few exceptions. Being charged with the financial control and the operation of the budget, and the operation of the different departments.

The city manager is charged with the responsibility of appointing and removing department heads, and assistant department heads, the balance of the organization being under civil service.

He is the responsible official to the city council, which is the policymaking body.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you appoint Chief Jesse E. Curry to his position?

Mr. CRULL. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a political appointment, or just how was it made?

Mr. CRULL. We don’t have any political appointments. We are a council-manager government. We have no political parties as such. The national parties take no activity in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. If you make an appointment, does the mayor or the city council have anything to do with it by way of suggestion or rejection?

Mr. CRULL. No, sir; the responsibility for the appointment and for the performance of the appointee is with the city manager. The council does set salaries for all appointees.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible, I suppose then, for the city council to veto your appointment by not appropriating the money for the salary, is that possible?

Mr. CRULL. It is possible. It hasn’t happened in 30 years.

Mr. HUBERT. The selection of Chief Curry was your own selection?

Mr. CRULL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have said then, it was based upon merit?

Mr. CRULL. In my opinion; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what is the ordinary effect of your relationship with your department heads, including and particularly the head of the police department insofar as the administration and policies of the police department are concerned?

Mr. CRULL. The general administration is left to the chief and his staff. They are trained. The administrative policies, the general personnel regulations, and things of that nature first come out of our office to the department, and then are followed by the different departments. We do check through the budget office on any deviation in policies. Department heads request changes in policies, purchasing, financing, personnel, and operating.

In addition to that, the chief, since a police department is a delicate operation with a particularly difficult public relations problem, would discuss things which might have a particular public application so far as public acceptance.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your power to overrule any decision or action taken by the police department or the head thereof?

Mr. CRULL. Not any action. It would be within my power to overrule on a policy matter and on administrative matters, but of course not those things which were covered by law. Do I make myself clear?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but except for those duties and functions of the police department that are established by law, you would have the authority to direct the chief to do or not to do any action that you thought?

Mr. CRULL. That’s right, any department head.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crull, I have previously handed you a document consisting of three pages, which is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Calvin Rice and John J. Flanagan, dated December 12, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I have marked on the first page in the right-hand margin thereof as follows:

“Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit 1, deposition of Elgin Crull.” I have signed my name below that, and on the second and third page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of those pages.

I think you have had an opportunity to read that document, and I will now ask you if that document is correct as to the nature and effect stated in the course of that interview, and whether it reflects the facts as you remember them?

Mr. CRULL. In general, it does, but there are some details which are inaccurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now with respect to the details, I notice that you have marked on the very last line of the second paragraph on page 1, a little mark indicating that you wish to comment on that last line. Would you state what you wish to say about it, please, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I believe that says simply that I went to the lake, to a cabin. The only change is that there is no cabin. I have a boat on the lake.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?

Mr. CRULL. Other than that, it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in the next paragraph, which is the third paragraph on page 1, you have put a little mark next to the statement that you heard over the radio of Oswald having been shot.

Mr. CRULL. I did not hear it over the radio. I was called by the operator of the marina, or one of his people, I do not remember which, who had heard it over the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. Now on the next paragraph on page 1, that is to say, paragraph 4, you marked next to the fifth line and also next to the sixth, seventh, and eighth lines of that paragraph; first of all, with reference to the statement that you had selected the prior chief of police. That is to say, the chief of police prior to Chief Curry. Do you have any comments to make about that?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; I didn’t select Chief Curry’s predecessor. He was selected by my predecessor or one of my predecessors.

Mr. HUBERT. The chief of police who was in office prior to Chief Curry was in that office when you became the city manager?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You kept him on?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Or perhaps it was thought that that was an appointment of him? But nevertheless, we have a clarification on that.

Now that sentence continues and reads as follows: That you never interfered with the operations of the police department, leaving it entirely in the chief’s hands, as he did with other city departments. I think you indicated you wished to address yourself to that thought?

Mr. CRULL. I think perhaps that gives the wrong impression, that departments and department heads operate entirely on their own without any supervision at all.

Our department heads are experienced, and they do operate with a great deal of freedom, but not without control and not without consultation with the central office or manager’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to the second page in the last paragraph, eight lines from the bottom of the page, there is a reference to an individual in the report who quotes you as saying he was a yellow-sheet journalist. I think you wanted to comment on that?

Mr. CRULL. I think that phrase should be stricken, because it is not my phrase. I don’t recall it, and it is not one I would use normally. I think someone has attempted to portray what I thought of the individual, has injected his phrase.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess to get the story complete, since you wish to delete the specific phrase, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what was your impression of him, in your own words.

Mr. CRULL. The publisher of this local newspaper is careless with facts, and is inclined toward the sensational. And quite frankly, says he does it deliberately in order to sell newspapers.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that a little further down in this same paragraph there is a statement attributed to you by virtue of the fact that it in direct quotes says as follows: “I can’t sell newspapers by telling the truth.” Which according to this report, the FBI says you stated with regard to that interview.

Mr. CRULL. That is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no other marks indicating that you wish to comment upon any other part of Exhibit No. 1, so is it a fact then, that other than the corrections that have been made, it is your opinion that Exhibit No. 1 represents a true and faithful record of the interview?

Mr. CRULL. With the exceptions, I think it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now while we were on the subject of this statement which had appeared in the Oak Cliff Tribune with reference to the pressure being brought upon Chief Curry in regard to his relationship with the press, I would like for you, if you wish, to comment upon what role you played with reference to the matter of control of the press and the whole situation involving the press?

Mr. CRULL. I need some explanation. Over what period of time?

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the period of time from November the 22d, after the President was shot, until the 24th or 25th of November.

Mr. CRULL. After the President was shot, for quite some time I was at the control station at the site of the luncheon. When I finally returned to the city hall, I believed I reached there before the chief did--I went to my own office, and I can’t say how long, later went across to the police department, which is in an adjoining building.

Mr. HUBERT. But there is a corridor?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; at that time the press had almost taken over. These were the visiting press. Our local press had been pushed off to one side, and the visitors who had made the trip here with the press, plus the television people, had flooded the third-floor corridors.

The chief’s office--the television people had opened the switchboard on the corridor and their technicians had attached their equipment to the electrical system, and they were pretty well set up. I do not know, but I assume that all this happened while all the top men in the department were out on the job. There was no reason for top-level people being in the police department headquarters during the time of the Kennedy visit. They each had other assignments.

Mr. HUBERT. When you went there and saw the condition you just described, what time was it, about?

Mr. CRULL. I guess I would say it was about 3:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of the top officers of the police department there on the third floor when you arrived?

Mr. CRULL. I can’t remember specifically. Later that afternoon, I talked to Chief Curry when he did return.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that conversation take place?

Mr. CRULL. In his office in the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your return?

Mr. CRULL. I guess this was 30 or 40 minutes. About 4 o’clock in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you left the building and gone back?

Mr. CRULL. I had gone back to my office and come back again. He had been to the airport with the President’s body. At that time Chief Curry discussed the condition of things with the press, and I agreed with him that we would continue our policy of trying to cooperate with the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a formal meeting with the press, or how did that take place?

Mr. CRULL. No; but they were--the offices are small, and the corridor is not too big, and when you move that many television men and cameras and newspaper reporters into the corridor and into the offices, there was practically no space for anybody to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was thinking about was where this conference that you mentioned took place which apparently you witnessed between Curry and members of the press?

Mr. CRULL. No; I gave you the wrong impression. It was a conference between me and the chief, and Chief Batchelor, his assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that conference?

Mr. CRULL. The general situation. This was the first time I had had a chance to talk to Chief Curry, since he had left to go to the hospital after the President was killed, and we looked at the situation, and I agreed with the chief that we would continue to try to cooperate with the press, that there would have to be some order brought into the situation, but that it was important that the police department not be put in a position in which later people could charge that this man had been beaten, and had been kept under cover, and not been allowed to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving the press out completely?

Mr. CRULL. No; this could have been an alternative, but we did not consider it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that there was some discussion about controlling the situation?

Mr. CRULL. We had to get them out of the offices and pushed back out into the corridor so people could work. They flooded into the chief’s office and the surrounding offices too.

Mr. HUBERT. They had been in the offices of the various divisions?

Mr. CRULL. No; at the end of that particular corridor are the top administrative offices, the office of the chief, the assistant chief, and the deputy chief, the four deputy chiefs, and his clerical help, and that is the office into which they had largely flooded.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald in custody on the third floor at that time?

Mr. CRULL. He was--this is hearsay--I understand in custody in the homicide bureau at the other end of the hall on the same floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given as to the effect of the congregation of the press in that area?

Mr. CRULL. The press was not being allowed to go beyond the midpoint in the building.

Mr. HUBERT. How was that controlled?

Mr. CRULL. There were officers there. The homicide bureau was north of the midpoint in the bureau, and there was at that time and most of the time, I understand--again I am relying on hearsay--that that part of the corridor was kept comparatively free.

Now I was there at one time, and I can’t say when, when they moved Oswald from homicide back up to the jail, I believe. At that time he was brought out through the corridor and did walk with the detectives holding him through the press, which was, or part of the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to any members of the press or otherwise gain any impression as to their attitude about what their rights were, and so forth?

Mr. CRULL. I gained an impression from talking to some of the local newspapermen who came up to me and said, “Please don’t blame us for what is going on. We don’t act this way.”

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something about what those actions were that the local press seemed to be apologizing for?

Mr. CRULL. This is something I don’t know of my own knowledge at all.

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking of what you yourself observed.

Mr. CRULL. Crowding, pushing, and attempting to take over. The free and easy use of the electrical system, which I think I noticed that most.

Mr. HUBERT. What was some example of that?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t check the details, but the switchboxes had been opened and the technicians pretty obviously had hooked on any place they could find a wire which would support the use.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any fuses were blown?

Mr. CRULL. I was told that there were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with Chief Curry or any of the top officials of the police department the problem of the safety of the prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with them the problem of the matter of the ultimate transfer of the prisoner to the county jail when and if he were charged?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department quarters on the 22d?

Mr. CRULL. On Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking on Friday after this conference thing.

Mr. CRULL. I am sorry, I can’t be too accurate. I imagine I finally left the city hall and periodically I checked back with the police department either by telephone or actually by walking over there. I imagine it was about 7 o’clock before we left and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that in the interval before 7 o’clock, between that conference you just described and 7 o’clock, that you contacted the top officials of the police department either by walking over again or by telephone?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any further discussion had about the condition of the news media?

Mr. CRULL. No; the only thing I was interested in most then, of course as everyone else, was the progress being made with Oswald making the case. I was pretty well snowed in my own office by telegrams, telephone calls, and things which had come in in great numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went home about 7 o’clock?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you return to the municipal building or police department any more that night?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further communication with them the night of the 22d?

Mr. CRULL. I have to keep this straight by days of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. This is Friday the 22d.

Mr. CRULL. This is the day of the President’s death?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CRULL. No; before I left the police department the last time, they told me they thought the case was pretty well wrapped up, and that there would be no particular new developments, so after I left that night, I went home that night, and the following morning I went to the lake, Saturday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you go to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. About 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not then go back to the police department?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after 7 o’clock, on Friday, you didn’t have any occasion to observe the conditions in the city hall at all?

Mr. CRULL. No; not till Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with the police department after you got to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. Not until Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you have communication, and in what way on Sunday morning?

Mr. CRULL. On Sunday morning, the specific time I can’t say. A member of the marina staff called me, and said that the radio said that Oswald had been shot. So I went to the marina office and used the telephone to call Dallas. I was calling from the marina, Lake Texoma, just out of Denison, Tex. I did call the office and I talked with Chief Stevenson, and he told me, his words were, “I guess you have heard that we have lost our prisoner.”

Then he told me something of the details, although it was then confused.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald dead then, or did he tell you so?

Mr. CRULL. They didn’t know at that time. I was talking to them at the police department, and Oswald had been moved to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?

Mr. CRULL. No; I can’t say. I waited at Texoma then, a short time, until my wife came back to the lake. She had been in to Denison to church, and shortly after noon we came back to Dallas. I came to the city hall after changing my clothes at home, to the police department and talked to our mayor then and found that he had received some telephone threats, and that the police had a guard on him, that he wanted to go to Washington for the President’s funeral, and that there was some concern about it. So I left the city hall and went to the home of the mayor, discussed his trip with him, decided on my own that he should have protection all the way, called Chief Curry, and suggested that he assign Lieutenant Revill, who was the head of the chief intelligence section, to make the trip to Washington with Mayor Cabell.

Over the telephone the chief did this, and I waited at the mayor’s home until Revill went to his house and collected his clothes. Then, in a squad car, I went to the airport to see the mayor off on the airplane.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?

Mr. CRULL. Between 5:30 and 6 o’clock, something in that area. It was still daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you informed by anyone of any fears that existed concerning the safety of Oswald?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t hear this report until several days later that there had been some.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already stated that in your discussions with the head of the chief of police, the head of the police department on Friday afternoon between 4 and 7, that there had not been discussed or mentioned any fear concerning his safety, is that right?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct. The concern expressed was that with the whole world looking on, the thing be kept in the open as much as it could be, with a reasonable degree of security. Quarterbacking the game on Monday, apparently we were stressing the wrong point.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently from the last part of your answer there, you mentioned that since the whole world was looking on, the press should be given as much freedom as possible? I think you mentioned consistent with security, or something of that sort?

Mr. CRULL. Consistent with the safety of the prisoner; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that the actual safety of the prisoner was a matter of discussion?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t think it would be accurate to say that it was a matter of discussion. It was mentioned, but I doubt very seriously that the staff of personnel was very concerned about it, because he was at that time safely in the homicide bureau surrounded by detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say it was mentioned, the safety of the prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. I think so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember by whom?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said, too, that there was no discussion of the method of transfer or the danger or perils that might exist for the safety of the prisoner when that would come about?

Mr. CRULL. The method of transfer I did not discuss at all at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And of course since you left on Saturday morning and did not communicate or have any communication with the police until after the shooting of Oswald, you knew nothing about any developments or about any threats, and so forth, that had been made to him?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you know what plans for transfer had been developed and were prepared to be carried out?

Mr. CRULL. No; quite frankly, I think this belongs in it. I never thought seriously of the prisoner being killed. I don’t know whether others did or not, but I was concerned primarily with the case being wrapped up, and solid, so that there would be no question about who killed the President.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; there is one statement I have noticed in the FBI report identified as Exhibit No. 1, on page 2, that I would like, if you would, to clarify, because it is not really clear to me. It is the third sentence in the last paragraph on the second page reading as follows, to wit: “He--that is you--stated on November 25 he issued instructions to his subordinates and to Chief Curry and the police department to make no comments concerning these matters. Insofar as he knows, these instructions have been followed.” I would just like to get a clarification of what you had in mind. It is not clear to me.

Mr. CRULL. This may be inaccurate in my timing. This came immediately after the shooting of Oswald and the delivery of Ruby to the county jail. A problem for the district attorney’s office, and for the Commission, and at that time the press had announced that President Johnson had announced that he would name such a Commission. He had actually named Chief Justice Warren to head it. I am not certain.

And my instructions were that no police officer make any comment, that no evidence be released by any police officer, that it would all be turned over to the district attorney for his control, and I talked to the district attorney by telephone and told him my instructions. This was on Monday. Later, whether it was the same day or the following day, the district attorney told the chief of police that he preferred that that responsibility go to the--what is now known as the Warren Commission. I don’t believe any member of the police department, but with one exception, has yet violated the instructions on statements.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crull, as you know, there has been at least one statement to the effect that Chief Curry was “taking the wrap for higher-ups who insisted that Oswald be transferred in daylight hours in order to accommodate the press and other news media.”

Do you know anything about that at all, sir?

Mr. CRULL. So far as I am concerned, the higher ups would have to be either the city manager or the mayor. So far as the city manager is concerned, Chief Curry was given no instructions whatsoever as to the transfer, and I feel quite confident that Mayor Cabell didn’t.

For two reasons, One, he says he didn’t, and the other, that under the charter, the city manager’s responsibility for the chief of police and the mayor doesn’t give direct orders. I think the statement is completely untrue.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that would indicate that Mayor Cabell or any of the members of the council did exercise any kind of pressure whatsoever on Chief Curry?

Mr. CRULL. I know of nothing, and I feel certain that it didn’t occur.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at all?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else you would like to add?

Mr. CRULL. No; I guess not. Nearly all my knowledge is of course hearsay. I have no direct knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; then let me close the deposition with the usual question. Am I correct in stating that nothing has been discussed between us at any time since we first met, which was today, that has not become subsequently a part of this deposition by being reported?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, sir.

Mr. CRULL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came by.

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ

The testimony of J. W. Fritz was taken at 9 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. W. Fritz. Captain Fritz, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Fritz, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Captain Fritz, I understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, to Chief Curry asking that certain members of the police department, including yourself, be present here.

In fact, under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken, which you have not had, at least directly from the Commission.

On the other hand, the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day written notice, and I ask you now whether you are willing to have your deposition taken now and therefore waive the notice?

Captain FRITZ. I could tell you what happened over there. Is there any question that I need advice on before I answer these questions? As far as I am personally concerned, I don’t know of anything that I need any advice on, but if you think that it is proper that I have advice or counsel, I would be glad to do what you think is necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so, sir. Of course it is difficult for me to determine that question. Let me put it this way.

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything that I am hesitant to talk about, or anything that I wouldn’t care about telling you.

Mr. HUBERT. If there is any time in the course of the deposition that you would rather have advice on before you proceed, just say so and we will stop at that point and let you have advice.

Captain FRITZ. I can’t think of anything that I need advice on, but if you know something I don’t know, just tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I don’t believe there is either, but it is hard for me to tell whether you do or not.

Captain FRITZ. I know nothing about this entire case that the truth won’t fit better than anything else. I don’t know of anything to be hesitant about, unless there is something I haven’t heard of.

Mr. HUBERT. To come back to the question, are you willing to waive the 3-day written notice that normally you are entitled to?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am willing. If there is nothing other than just the facts of what happened over here at the time of the assassination, I don’t care for telling you anything about that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all we are going to talk about.

Captain FRITZ. All right, then.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain FRITZ. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz, you are----

Captain FRITZ. You have my previous testimony before the Commission?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe I do, but I was going to state this, that you have appeared before the Commission and given testimony there, and I think your qualifications and your position and various statistics concerning yourself were included in that. Therefore, I don’t believe it is necessary for us to include any of that material here.

You are a captain of the Dallas police force in charge of the homicide division?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. Homicide and robbery.

Mr. HUBERT. And have been for how many years? Many years?

Captain FRITZ. Many years; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There are a couple of matters that I would like to ask if you know. It may be that you do not know at all. Can you tell us either from your own knowledge or from what would be normal under the circumstances, what food was afforded to Oswald from the time he was arrested on through, if you know?

Captain FRITZ. What food was furnished him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain FRITZ. Of course the food in the jail, I wouldn’t know anything about. I don’t have anything to do with the food in the jail.

I didn’t remember in the beginning until someone reminded me that we fed him what he would eat while he was there at the office while we were talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Friday on November 22 in the afternoon?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; in the afternoon. He didn’t want a great deal. He didn’t eat very much, but we brought him what he would eat and drink. I believe he drank coffee a couple of times. I didn’t remember those things until the officers reminded me in the office. We do that for almost all prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have supper at the usual hour that day?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the other meals that he may have had during the Saturday and Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. Saturday and Sunday, I don’t know. I wouldn’t know about any food other than the things that were brought into the office.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that would be strictly up to the jail personnel?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; that’s right. They take care of the food in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. He was returned, I think, and the records would show that, to the jail at mealtimes? In other words, the interrogation was stopped?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure. I am not even sure about what time their mealtimes are in the jail, and they might not have been. They could have been or could not, but I do know that after being reminded of it by the officers, he was given anything he wanted to eat or drink while he was there in my office in the way of milk or coffee or anything of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. We also note that an attorney, Mr. H. Louis Nichols, connected with the Dallas Bar Association, came to see Oswald at some time. Do you know anything about that as to when he came?

Captain FRITZ. I heard of that, of course, but he didn’t come to my office. He went to the chief’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the interview between Oswald and Mr. Nichols did not take place when the prisoner was in your custody?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that at all times when the prisoner was in your custody, he was on what is called a “Tempo” in the police department? That is to say, a release from the jail custody to the division custody, and also showed the return of the prisoner?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I would have to look at the record to tell whether that is true, but you know he was brought to my office when he was arrested. It is entirely possible he had never been to jail when he was in my office first, so he naturally wouldn’t be under a Tempo, and he was there for some time before he went to jail.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he----

Captain FRITZ. Then every time we bring him out, he would be on a Tempo; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There was an assembly of the press held late at night of the 22d or possibly early morning of the 23d to which Oswald was brought. Chief Curry and Henry Wade were there, and there were a number of press personnel there. It was held in the assembly room. Did you go to that?

Captain FRITZ. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about it at all?

Captain FRITZ. I knew about it. I know that the chief told me to have him carried to the assembly room, to the showup room, and I directed some of my officers to take him down there, but I didn’t attend the discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby at all, or did you know?

Captain FRITZ. Did I know him before; no, sir, I did not. I never knew him before, to the best of my knowledge. That is the first time I ever saw him, when he was arrested. In fact, when the shooting happened, I thought some officer had lost his reasoning and shot that man, because of so many officers being down there.

And I asked one of the officers quickly if that was an officer that shot him, and he said it was “Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And he said, “He owns a club downtown.”

Mr. HUBERT. What officer was that?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know, some of my officers.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen pictures?

Captain FRITZ. Several of the officers knew him, but I didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of Ruby and perhaps you have seen him in person since?

Captain FRITZ. Oh, yes; I have questioned him since then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you search your memory and tell us whether you saw that same person in and about the police department, particularly the third floor, on the 22d and 23d?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. I was very busy at that time. It is possible I could have seen him. If I did, I wouldn’t have known him, because there was 200 or 300 people I didn’t know.