Chapter XLIX: Front Matter (49)

Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember a phone call at 7:30 that same night, that’s the night prior to the shooting of the President? That’s on Thursday night--that you called the Carousel Club and spoke for approximately 3 minutes to a person named Larry?

Mr. CARLIN. No; definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not make any such call on the telephone the night before the President was killed?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know if I made a call. If I did, it was not to Larry. Now, I called at various times and trips and I do not know whether it was this one--this particular time, but I do remember calling and asking for Karen and having to wait a length of time for her to come to the phone, but as far as talking to anyone in conversation, I don’t know even who answered the phone. I can’t even say if it was that particular time that I called. I do know I have called and Andrew answered the phone, and he’s the one I thought answered it, but I don’t know exactly when it was that I called.

Mr. HUBERT. But you can be quite certain, I believe from what you have testified, that you did not visit the Carousel Club on the night the President was shot, that is, Friday night?

Mr. CARLIN. Not unless we drove back and got back in time to pick Karen up, but I don’t think we did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember going to pick her up?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember a number of times coming back from a trip and picking her up.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean then.

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not remember picking her up that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first talked to her about the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall the first time I mentioned it to her--probably as soon as I came home.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It would depend on what time we left from New Orleans. I could guess, if I knew what time I left New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that you left New Orleans shortly after checking out of the Sugar Bowl?

Mr. CARLIN. At times we would, but other times, to save money, we would check out and service one or two accounts and then leave.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know about this time?

Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure all of our accounts were serviced when we checked out, possibly they weren’t.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you checked out prior to hearing of the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I think we were still in the motel at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you remember then that you went to the Sugar Bowl Motel after looking at the television concerning the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. I think so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that meant you would have checked out of the Sugar Bowl Motel some time in the afternoon or night of Friday, November 22?

Mr. CARLIN. I misunderstood.

Mr. HUBERT. I say--that means that you would have checked out from the Sugar Bowl Motel after the President’s death, that is to say, during the afternoon or night of the 22d?

Mr. CARLIN. Unless we did not check out and spent the night there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in which case you would have checked out the following morning?

Mr. CARLIN. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. Right. The Sugar Bowl records will show that, because I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man named Pachey Nespica?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--not to my knowledge. Wait a minute--Nespica?

Mr. HUBERT. Nespica.

Mr. CARLIN. Is he with a greeting card company?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. There is an indication that you spoke to him on November 6 and that he is in Cleveland, Ohio?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--I don’t know him, but I do know I tried to call him. We were still trying to get a franchise on greeting cards from him.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain his number and name?

Mr. CARLIN. This--I don’t remember either. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that--about?

Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I just know it was in the morning some time. I don’t remember the date that I called. I also noticed that name on the receipt from the telephone company when I was giving it to the CPA.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did your conversation with him last?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--just as quick as I could get off the phone, knowing what it cost.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was about these greeting cards and you wanted to be able to sell?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you had obtained his name and telephone number from someone?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I’m trying to think where. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me either in one of the stores or possibly the American Greeting Card salesman. I called him a number of times and he might have given it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from, do you remember?

Mr. CARLIN. You mean--to Nespica?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. From my home.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an enterprise that you had with Bunker or were you alone in that?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, Bunker and I were trying to get it--well, I don’t know whether I told him, but it seems as though I told him I was trying to get it. I know we had talked about it, but I don’t know that he was in it.

Mr. HUBERT. You were working for him, he wasn’t working for you, was he?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, you can say “working for him”--it was an agreement where I helped him build his business and if I did he would give mo a job.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he pay for these telephone calls?

Mr. CARLIN. No; he did not pay for those.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he supposed to have?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, there are some calls that were made on my phone that he was supposed to pay for, but this is not one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Cameron King, can you tell us about him?

Mr. CARLIN. He was my--oh--I worked for Friendship Greetings, and at that time I wasn’t working for Cameron King, but he was my boss when I worked for Friendship Greetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Cameron King?

Mr. CARLIN. He was the sales supervisor over this area for Friendship Greetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--from Kansas.

Mr. HUBERT. The record shows here that you called him on September 27. Do you recall that--that you called him at Farmers Branch, Tex.?

Mr. CARLIN. I called Cameron?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the times I called him--I don’t recall that that time I called him, but I do know that many, many times I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. What were these conversations about?

Mr. CARLIN. To my knowledge, I guess that would be in regard to Friendship Greetings or maybe a check that they owed me or a phone bill that they had agreed to pay that they didn’t ever pay.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you called him on September 27 twice--at 2:45 p.m. and at 5:53 p.m.?

Mr. CARLIN. On September the 27th? What day was that in regard to that particular time? Maybe I can recall the reason for calling him.

Mr. HUBERT. This was on September the 27th and September the 27th was a Friday. That’s September 27, 1963.

Mr. CARLIN. That 27th would have been after I made the trip; right?

Mr. HUBERT. After you made what trip?

Mr. CARLIN. After the trip to New Orleans or before.

Mr. HUBERT. September the 27th would have been almost 2 months before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall why I would call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that would make you call him twice in one day?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, a number of things--I can’t recall particularly why, but if you will notice the records show that he had been called a number of times and the last few months two times a day. I worked for the man.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for him then?

Mr. CARLIN. In September?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--I believe so--I believe I was, but I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you start with Bunker?

Mr. CARLIN. I’ve been working with Bunker for about 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be working with Cameron King and Bunker at the same time?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. There were times--a month or 2 or 3 months that I didn’t do anything with Bunker and there were times when he wanted a few more accounts and I could financially handle them and he would come to me and want me to go sell these accounts and we would get behind in servicing, and he would come to me and we would go service them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money with it?

Mr. CARLIN. Very little with Cameron. He paid my expenses and that’s about the most of it. At times he would give us various sundries that we needed and at times he would give me $5 or $10, but that was nothing to say I made any money. It was a promise deal that I would get a percent of the company for building it and a job.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man named Johnny Ammons [spelling] A-m-m-o-n-s?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. CARLIN. He owns a service station. The only reason I would be calling him would be trying to get a motor for a car that I owned at the time that the motor was out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall speaking to him?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; but I don’t know exactly when.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other association with him?

Mr. CARLIN. No; only about 4 or 5 years ago I was at his home once, again, dealing with a car. He buys and sells cars.

Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to him on the 30th of October just after noon, on the 30th of October. Do you recall whether you had ever spoken to him prior to that date, or do you recall when was the last time you spoke to him prior to that date?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the last time I spoke to him prior to that. That particular call, I think, was in regard to a head for a motor that was gone out on the one I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you hadn’t spoken to him for a year? That’s what I gather?

Mr. CARLIN. I would say at least a year and maybe more.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact with him for at least a year up until that time?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with him since?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who put in the call to Ruby on Saturday night when you were asking for the $5 from him?

Mr. CARLIN. The first call--Karen went to the phone booth and made, and the second call was made from the parking lot, and I don’t recall whether it was Karen or I that called him. It might have even been Tammi that dialed the number.

Mr. HUBERT. What place was called?

Mr. CARLIN. His home--to my knowledge--I talked to him, and I assumed that he was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though we had to make two calls--I don’t know whether he--no, maybe it was just one and I talked to him after Karen did. Maybe that’s the way it was--I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it was at his home rather than any place else?

Mr. CARLIN. I assume it was. I did not dial the number.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did you ask him for that night or did Karen ask him for, or both?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, we didn’t ask him for the $5. We told him that we needed the money and we came over here thinking that he would be open and we could get the money, and I don’t know what he said to her, but he upset her--I don’t know whether he hung up on her and she dialed the number back or someone dialed the number back, but he upset her and I took the phone and I said something to the effect that he had been very good about letting her have money when she needed it and we appreciated it, and we were in a jam, and that we came over without any money and needed it the next day, and he said, “Well, Bruce, I don’t owe that girl anything.” He said, “I’ll give her money when she has money due,” and he said, “I don’t owe her anything,” and I said, “I realize that but we are in a jam,” and he said, “Well, let me speak to--” the man there--whatever his name was--I don’t recall whether he called him by name or not, “and I’ll tell him to give you $5.” He said it in a tone of voice as though he was upset and mad because we had called. Oh, he said, “I can’t come down there, I’ve got people here and company,” and I did hear people talking.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was reluctant to give you the $5, to lend you the $5?

Mr. CARLIN. Not so much reluctant. He offered it, but I didn’t think to ask him to let us borrow the money from somebody there and pay him back. I didn’t think of that, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. But his position was that he didn’t owe any money, so he was lending the money?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, he owed it; I believe. Again--I’m not sure, but he said, “I don’t owe that girl a thing.” In other words--“I’ve done enough for her,” and I don’t mean as far as money. He said, “I’ve done her enough favors and I don’t owe her anything.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t owe her the obligation of advancing her salary?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; that’s what I mean, and then he said--again, disgusted, but like he didn’t mind, that he just didn’t want to talk. He said, “Let me talk to the guy there and I’ll get him to give you $5 and I can give it back to him.”

Mr. HUBERT. And you took it to mean then that that was all he was going to let you have on the advanced salary, is that right?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t know whether he said it to me or to her, but he said to call him tomorrow and he would send us some more--I believe was the terms he used, or call him tomorrow he would send us some.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he explain why he wanted you to call him tomorrow or why he would be in a position to give you some on Sunday and not on Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he said he was busy and didn’t have time to come down there to give it to us then. He said he had company.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did ask for more money on Saturday night than the $5?

Mr. CARLIN. I asked for no specific amount. Karen may have the first time she talked to him or at that time before I started talking to him, but I asked for no specific amount.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any consideration to borrowing from your family or friends or other people rather than Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, yes; I probably could have except for two things: First, I had no car to go somewhere to borrow it, and second, it was fairly late at night, and third, I was in Dallas where I could not get back to borrow money that late at night.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you made the call from the garage, but you had previously been at the Colony Club, had you not?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you make the call from the Colony Club?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember now--the call was made from the Colony Club and she said that he was very upset and rude to her and we went back down to see--it seems as though Andy was in here somewhere, at least he was supposed to be at the club or something--that’s what he said. At least, Karen told me he said Andrew was supposed to be at the club. After upsetting her and hanging the phone up, we went down to see if the club was open and we knocked on the door and no one was there, and we went back to the parking lot again and called because it was downstairs and the Colony was upstairs and farther away, and much more noise.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connection with an outfit called Banker’s Drug Co. or Bankers’ Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. Bankers’ Drugs--not to my knowledge. You might tell me some more about them, if I did?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that when you were servicing these little motels, these setups in motels, that some of it was with drugs like aspirin and so forth?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; definitely so. That’s what we did.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your recollection or refresh your memory of that concerning any possible connection you had with Bankers’ Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. I realize that that would be the only way that I would have a connection with Bankers’ Drugs.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it mean anything to you now?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Southwestern Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; we’ve done business with Southwestern Drugs.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that--a wholesale house?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. CARLIN. There’s one here in Fort Worth. There is a little drug company in Houston that we bought a number of things from because we ran short, but I don’t know if it was at this particular time, or if this was the name of the company.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any dealings with selling any sort of other drugs of miscellaneous character to Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. Again--the question, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any occasion to sell any kind of miscellaneous drugs of that sort to Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I certainly did not, and I don’t know if you are referring to this or not, but we handle nothing in the line of narcotics.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I’m not talking about that.

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the line of business that you were in selling these sundry items?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about aspirin and things like that?

Mr. CARLIN. No. I sold none to Ruby. I don’t know if you might be referring to this particular time, but at some time or other someone said they needed something, they said that they were out of something and I got something out of the car and gave it to someone, and I don’t know if at this particular time if it was Jack Ruby or somebody in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the Carousel?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know--I just remember that Jerry said, “Why don’t you get something out of the car and give it to he or she”--or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Jerry Bunker?

Mr. CARLIN. I think that’s the time. Again, it could have been here in Fort Worth. I recall that he did send me to the car to get something for somebody that was out of something. It might have been hair oil or something.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether it was Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t

Mr. HUBERT. Did Tammi True stay with you’all all the time on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. All the time we were in Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall whether she left for any reason or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he drive you back?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether she picked you up or you met her some place to drive back?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. I think we drove back right from the parking lot--from the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came in from Fort Worth and went directly to the garage?

Mr. CARLIN. To the best of my knowledge, I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate to you that Tammi True was with you all during the time?

Mr. CARLIN. Unless she would have gotten up during the time we were in the Colony and maybe talked to someone or something of that nature, but to the best of my knowledge I saw her periodically all night long and I didn’t pay much attention to what she was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ralph Paul that night?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall whether I did or not--I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. You know him, don’t you?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Tammi True with you, did she see him, to your knowledge?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know whether she did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen or Kathy Kay on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23 or 24?

Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay sounds familiar, but Harry Olsen, I can’t place.

Mr. HUBERT. Harry Olsen was formerly a member of the Dallas Police Department and he subsequently married Kathy Kay.

Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay then is the girl, the blonde-headed girl that worked at the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Of course, you couldn’t have seen her on Friday, I take it, from what you tell me?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall seeing her--in fact, I don’t recall seeing her since--from the time--well, before I left, I don’t recall seeing her.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you didn’t see her after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Olsen?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby had called him on Saturday night and had talked possibly about doing something to Lee Harvey Oswald or to the Weinsteins?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know Weinstein. No; he did not call--I mean--he did not tell me he called.

Mr. HUBERT. Paul never told you he had received a call from Ruby on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. I never conversed with Paul other than “Hello, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. So, the answer then is that Paul did not tell you that Ruby had spoken to him on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby tell you what time to call him on Sunday with reference to getting the rest of the money?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t believe he did. If he did, I did not go by what he said. I called when I got up.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been arranged that the money would be sent by wire?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m not positive. It seems as though he told Karen this or she led me to believe this by something she said.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who it was that used to pick up Karen and Little Lynn, I think was her stage name, too?

Mr. CARLIN. Pick her up in a cab?

Mr. HUBERT. In a cab. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--at what time was she picked up, after she got off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes--possibly. You don’t know anything about anybody picking her up?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were your closest friends among the strippers, other than Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. The only one that I knew personally was Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Karen’s closest friend among the strippers--among those girls?

Mr. CARLIN. I would guess Tammi True. She didn’t get along with anybody too well to tell you the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve seen pictures of him, I take it?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him any place?

Mr. CARLIN. His face looks familiar, but as many times as you have seen a picture like that, you could say the same thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?

Mr. CARLIN. Was I ever a member?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or the Socialist Workers party?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever participated in any political activities?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Bernard Weissman?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard of him and recalled it after an FBI agent asked me about him.

Mr. HUBERT. But prior to the time that the FBI agent asked you about him, did you know anything about him at all?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he was a man who put the leaflets out or an ad in the paper or something, before Kennedy came to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew that before Kennedy came to Dallas, or have you found it out afterwards?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I believe I found it out from the News--I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see any of the Bernard Weissman signs prior to that?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, I have marked for purposes of identification two photos by placing on the reverse side of them the following words: “Dallas, Texas, August 24, 1964”, and----

The REPORTER. You mean, “Fort Worth, Tex.”?

Mr. HUBERT. I do mean Fort Worth, and I am scratching “Dallas” out and putting “Fort Worth” there, and I have previously marked “Dallas” on all of these pictures, but I have scratched it out and entered above it “Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, Deposition of Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name.

These are FBI pictures of J. D. Tippit and I ask you whether or not you recognize that man?

Mr. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No; I do not recognize him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him before?

Mr. CARLIN. I couldn’t say. I’ve been shown these pictures once before.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also marked--I had marked them “Dallas” first and have scratched that out and have marked them “Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4, Deposition of Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name. These pictures, of course, purport to be various views of Bernard Weissman, also being FBI pictures, and I ask you if you have ever seen that man before?

Mr. CARLIN. This man does look familiar as I told the FBI agent, but I cannot say if I’ve seen him or where I’ve seen him, if I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him in connection with Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. I can’t say--it just seems as though I have seen this man before.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember where?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember if I’ve seen him. I just know he looks familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I thank you. That’s all.

Mr. CARLIN. Very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to your coming into this room today, I don’t believe we had any conversation, and therefore I ask you whether you concur that everything that has passed between us has been in this room since the reporter has been taking it down?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right. I would like to say this, if I may?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I have told all that I know. As far as I’m concerned, my wife has told all that she knows. I don’t believe she knows any more. Because of this complete or whole situation, I have lost one job and lost other jobs in regard to it, maybe not for the same reason but I knew why.

Now, I’ve got a living to make and a family to support and if there is anything else that anybody wants to talk to me about, I wish they would get it over with now, because it’s a matter of what or whether I’m going to eat or my family is going to eat the next meal and I should be out working today and I’ve lost another day, and I’ve been as cooperative as I can be.

I know no more. I don’t care about Ruby. I have a family to support and it all just sums up that I’m just tired of the FBI and Secret Service, and I know they’re doing their jobs, but it’s hard to live and live normally with the situation keeping coming back up like it is.

Now, if a man goes to jail, he pays his debt to society and he’s out and should be left alone. Karen probably should not have been working where she was working, but she is not working now and I’m trying to support her and a baby and I would like to be left alone.

If I could tell all I know, which I have told--I would like to get this over with and quit having to come back up here and be embarrassed by my landlord being asked by the Federal agents about where I am and questions about me and my friends.

I know it is a job that had to be done, and I feel like I’ve been questioned and investigated, and I don’t care how much they investigate me, but this is enough, and I think it’s time now to be left alone.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly appreciate your feelings. Let me make this statement to you--the fact that you’ve been recalled is by no means for the purpose of harassing you.

Mr. CARLIN. Oh, I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s just simply that sometimes little points develop that we didn’t know about at prior times, and it’s just an effort to do it right.

Mr. CARLIN. I understand that. I know everyone is doing their job and I realize that I told you things today that I didn’t remember the first time I was here.

Mr. HUBERT. With respect to your loss of pay, of course, I don’t think the Government can make that up to you, but there is a per diem which you are entitled to for appearing----

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t expect them to.

Mr. HUBERT. And if you will check with Mr. Conkle of the Secret Service, I think he can arrange to have you receive the per diem, so you may check with him. I don’t know whether it will be material or not but you might check with him.

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I’m not asking anything from the Government. I know I had a job to do and I think I’ve told you all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. But under the law you may be entitled to some stipend, and we want you to have it.

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I have contacted my lawyer here again and he said, “Go again and try to explain to them the situation that you’re in.” It has made it hard. I was making good money up until this started and it seems that I can’t stay anywhere long that they don’t recognize her, or an agent is asking questions, or the word gets around as to who I am and who my wife is, and this always means--well, it’s jeopardizing my family, and it’s nobody’s fault but ours, but we’re trying to live it down and we can’t do it if things like this keep coming up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m sure the Commission will take that into account. I don’t know whether you will be interrogated again--probably not--but I can assure you that if it should come about, it is because it would be absolutely necessary.

Mr. CARLIN. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. We really appreciate your position and thank you very much.

Mr. CARLIN. Okay, sir. Glad to have seen you.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BRUCE CARLIN

The testimony of Mrs. Bruce Carlin was taken at 1:40 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Bruce Carlin.

Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what pertinent facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and about his operations and associates and so forth.

Mrs. Carlin, there has been a letter addressed to you, but apparently it went to the wrong address, and this letter asked you to appear here, and of course the letter therefore was not received.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears has a right to have a 3-day written notice before they actually appear. The rules also provide that you may waive that written notice, and if you are willing to testify now without that 3-day written notice, you may do so. Of course, you can claim the privilege of having the 3-day notice or you can waive it and go ahead and testify now. Is it your wish to waive it and testify now without the 3 days’ written notice?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are Mrs. Bruce Carlin, is that so?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a stage name, I think, of what?

Mrs. CARLIN. Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think your name is also Karen?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s (spelling) K-a-r-e-n?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. There are only a few questions I need to ask you. Is your father alive?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mrs. CARLIN. Chattanooga, Tenn.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any member of your family who was killed by violence?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. No brothers or father-in-law or anyone of that sort?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so. I haven’t heard from any of them in quite a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of anybody that was murdered?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are your mother and father still living together?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Has your mother remarried?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--I won’t say definitely no, because I don’t know. I really don’t know if she has remarried or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know of any person who was killed by violence in your family?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know Kathy Kay, of course?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that her full name?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know her full name. All I knew her by was Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Harry Olsen?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mrs. CARLIN. Her boy friend--I believe that was his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he then a member of the police force, the Dallas police force?

Mrs. CARLIN. He was supposed to be; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether they have married or not?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Right before--I guess--yes, it was right before the President was killed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was the night--the last night we worked. I believe it was a Thursday night was the last night we worked.

Mr. HUBERT. Thursday was November 21st. Where did you see her?

Mrs. CARLIN. At the place--at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. She was a dancer there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen there then?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t think so. I saw Harry after that.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mrs. CARLIN. One night he came up to the club--no, it wasn’t up to the club. One night I walked down--I was walking to the bus station and this little parking lot right next door, he was standing inside, so I went inside to ask him about Kathy, to ask how she was and everything.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting of the President was this that you saw Harry Olsen?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it after Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand from your testimony then, that you did not see Kathy Kay or Harry Olsen on Friday, November 22 when the President was shot, or the next day, Saturday, or the day after that--on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did see Kathy again.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen her then since this Thursday night, the 21st?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And Harry Olsen only once and that was after Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When the club had reopened?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And when Mr. Paul was operating it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have seen pictures of Lee Oswald, I suppose?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I never paid any attention to them. I don’t remember what he even looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; as I told you before, I never did see him. I saw him somewhere but I wouldn’t say--it was either somebody that looked like him or I had seen him somewhere, but I couldn’t say where because I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you saw him, you mean you saw a man whom you think resembles the pictures that you have seen of Lee Oswald since?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been at the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. As I said before, it could have been, but I don’t, know for sure. I won’t say for sure. I just know that it was either him or someone that resembled him--I’ve seen somewhere. It could have been just about anywhere.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it then that you are really uncertain as to whether the man you think was or possibly resembled Oswald was in fact Oswald, you’re not sure about that?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know Oswald; no.

Mr. HUBERT. You just think that there was a resemblance between the man you recollect and the pictures of Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do not remember--you are not positive about it being the same man?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you remember where you saw him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--I saw so many different faces. I never paid any attention to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way--would it be most likely if you saw such a man, would it have been in the club or could it have been some place else?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, most likely it would have been there at the club or where I went to eat around the club, because that’s about the only places I’ve been--walking from the club to where I eat, the drugstore, and walking back.

Mr. HUBERT. This man that you saw that you think resembles the pictures of Oswald, or maybe did, you would have seen either at the club or at this drugstore near the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the drugstore where you had supper?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Secret Service agent by the name of Roger Warner?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember him. I’ve talked to so many.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember telling any Secret Service agent that you had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club?

Mrs. CARLIN. No: I remember telling them the same thing I told you. That’s all I’ve ever said, that it could have been but I’m not going to say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a positive identification?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And if it’s so reported, it’s simply a misstatement in the report?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I would say so because the only thing I have said is that it could possibly be, but I’m not going to say for sure, but the man resembled Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell any Secret Service agent or any Government official at all that you thought that Oswald and Ruby were connected in some way?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can never remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to anyone about that--the possibilities of their being connected?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes; I spoke to several people at the club--the Secret Service and the FBI--so many of them.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the possibility of a connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t remember ever saying anything like that. I’ve said it before but it was only hearsay or what I believed myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you believe yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Myself?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, maybe I shouldn’t say. I don’t think I really should because it’s just one person’s opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have anything to base it upon?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; it’s just my own opinion--nothing that I saw, you know, for myself. It’s just my own opinion by the way people talk and by him, Jack Ruby, himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was that about Jack Ruby himself that would support a possible connection between him and Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Just the way he was--the things I’ve read in the newspapers and things about him I saw for myself; people he would talk to; always having people in his office; and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That leads you to form that conclusion?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; for myself.

Mr. HUBERT. But what is the conclusion you form from that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, that he had connections with Lee Harvey Oswald. This is my own opinion. There’s nothing to base it on, except my own opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that because you saw these people going into the office and so forth?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and because of the things the newspapers have said, and the neighbors--the way that they talk about him and the things that they have said. It’s just the things that have been put in my mind that leave doubt there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, aside from what other people have told you or what you read in the paper, do you have anything that you can tell us that you know yourself that would lead you to form the conclusion that there was a connection between them?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; nothing that I saw or nothing that 1 heard, or anyone I saw even was there that I could hear talking, or anything--no. It’s been so long ago I can’t remember very much any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you, I believe?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what you screamed or said?

Mrs. CARLIN. “Oh, my God, they’re after me.”

Mrs. HUBERT. Yes--what made you believe that “they” were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I ever got to court.

Mr. HUBERT. Who do you think was going to kill you?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was going to get killed.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, who did you mean by “they,” when you said “they” were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, there was a man that was running after me--there was two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but I don’t remember very much.

Mr. HUBERT. So, when you used the word “they,” you meant those people there who were escaping?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have in mind some other group of people who were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn’t know they were escaping from the jail when I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pat Kirkwood?

Mrs. CARLIN. He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was--he had some publicity people down there--television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the President was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, “I want you down here in about 20 minutes,” and I said, “Kirkwood, I don’t want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. After I went to court, he says, “I want you down here,” and I said, “Well, I’m not coming down.” He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, “Why aren’t you down here?” He said, “I’ll send a cab up after you.”

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then?

Mrs. CARLIN. I was at home in bed, I wasn’t feeling too good, and my husband was out working. So, right after he called me--I was still on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished saying, “If you’re not down here, you won’t be around too long,” and then my husband walked in and I let him have the telephone and they talked then.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband say?

Mrs. CARLIN. My husband told him I wasn’t coming down and if he gave me any trouble he would tell the police about it, and he said, “Well, I’ll see her on the way to the club and I’ll see that she never makes it inside the door.”

We moved from the apartments that we were in that Kirkwood knew we were living in--we moved from there and Kirkwood didn’t know anything about it, and he went looking for me over there and asked my landlord about me and where to find me, and then he was supposed to meet me up at the Carousel Club and knock me out so I couldn’t get in--he was going to see that I never made it, and he never did show up. He called the colored man that took care of the place. He called him and told him to tell me that he had called, and I don’t remember what all he said to the colored man, but he called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he again?

Mrs. CARLIN. Pat Kirkwood.

Mr. HUBERT. He operates the Cellar, you say? That’s a nightclub?

Mrs. CARLIN. It’s a beatnik club here in town on Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from him since?

Mrs. CARLIN. I haven’t heard from him--no; not since then.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been last January?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you remember the Friday night that the President was shot, did you go to work that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. CARLIN. I got a telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. Who from?

Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the colored man.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day was that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t remember--I have no idea. It’s been so long.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Larry Crafard that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if I did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You know who Larry Crafard was?

Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the lights.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the spotlights and things--I don’t know his last name, but I knew him by Larry.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall whether you called him that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. No: I don’t recall. If I did, it was to see if I was coming to work or something, because I don’t remember it. It must not have been very important.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you came into Dallas on Saturday night with your husband and Tammi True?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had your husband gotten back that day, do you remember how much before you’all came into Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. I didn’t understand.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come to Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was right before working time and we started about 8:30. It was right before that.

Mr. HUBERT. No; how long had your husband been home when you started out to go to Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know--he come in and out so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he had been on a trip that weekend?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in town when the President was killed, do you remember that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes--well, I don’t know. I don’t know whether he was or not, I believe he was, though.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he used to go out on trips, didn’t he?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he used to go out and stay almost the whole night working motels with Mr. Bunker, and sometimes they would be gone for 2 or 3 days, but I don’t remember at that time where he was.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you two photos which have been identified as Exhibit No. 1 in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin, and ask you if you can identify the person who is represented by those pictures?

Mrs. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know an Officer J. D. Tippit, the man who was shot by Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t. I don’t know. I won’t say, because there was--oh, I don’t know how many used to come in and out and I was usually on stage and the lights were blinding me.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you don’t recognize the man who is shown in the pictures marked Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also that have been identified as Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you if you recognize the man who is shown in those pictures?

Mrs. CARLIN. This is the same one that they showed me a couple of days ago and I said that I wasn’t for sure, but he resembles the man that took over after Jack went to jail. There was a Paul and he worked the cash register, and there was a man that resembled him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was a man employed at the Carousel, a Mr. Paul, after Ruby was put in jail, this Mr. Paul took over and there was a man employed there by this Mr. Paul, and you think that the man who is represented in pictures 3 and 4 looks something like that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes. He was a little bit older, the man was, but it resembles him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what his name was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody talk to him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was just “Hello” and “Goodnight.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he there?