Chapter XXXVII: Front Matter (37)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have also handed to you and I think you have read it, a document purporting to be the transcription of your testimony at the Ruby trial, consisting of a number of pages, beginning apparently at page 52 and ending on page 67. I have marked this group of papers for identification as follows: On the first page I have put in the right-hand margin--“Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of Glenn Duncan” and I have signed my name below that and on each of the succeeding pages I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and I ask you if you have read this transcription of your testimony, and if you have any comment to make upon it?

Mr. DUNCAN. I have read it and it is correct in total. I have marked on one page----

Mr. HUBERT. Page 64?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes--page 64--and this concerns the part of the testimony where I was being cross-examined by Mr. Belli and he asks me, paraphrasing, if after Ruby had seen Oswald, did Ruby seem pleased, satisfied--that he had seen this character, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera--I have an addition to make.

I can remember now one particular incidence and this came to mind after the trial. We talked for a few minutes on Oswald himself, his appearance and so forth, and I remember, I believe Ruby brought it up, that he was--to the effect--actually a fairly nice looking kid. We talked about how he would normally--could pass off as a college student somewhere, and the connection was brought up to a vague resemblance between Oswald and Paul Newman, the movie star. This is about the only addition that I could make to that.

Mr. HUBERT. He was describing Oswald as he said he had seen him that night, wasn’t he?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. At a press conference?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon how he happened to be there?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, he did. He said he had come to the front door of our studio with the sandwiches and cola and so forth that I have mentioned elsewhere in that testimony, and had tried to get in--the door was locked, and because of the long distance between the flight of stairs and the studio, no one heard him, and he said he went over the the city hall, the police department, Dallas City Hall, to try to find one of our newsmen to either give the sandwiches to him or let him in. While he was there, he said there was all of a sudden a lot of commotion, people running around, and he said he was caught up in the rush and before he knew it he was in an assembly room, being pushed by everybody and standing there with his big bag of sandwiches and everything, and looking up at Oswald, and he said this was when Oswald was brought out to be seen by the press after he had been charged that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he was trying to convey to you that he got into that room more or less by accident by being brushed along and not by design?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; exactly. This was the whole point or one of the points that he was making--the fact that he hadn’t even known it was going to happen, and suddenly he was pushed along. He didn’t know what the rush was all about until he was in there surrounded by everybody.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was conveying to you that he got into the assembly room just by a sort of an accidental method and he did not get there because he sought to get there?

Mr. DUNCAN. Right. His exact words, I don’t remember, but the inference was very definitely accidental and not attempting to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know Jack Ruby prior to this, did you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I did not--it was the first time actually I had ever even heard of him--was when I was introduced to him on the telephone that night.

Mr. HUBERT. And how were you introduced to him?

Mr. DUNCAN. By the announcer on duty at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. DUNCAN. Danny McCurdy, and Jack called the control room, which was the only public number or the only place in the station at that time with the telephone answer to a public number, and our newsroom telephones are both unlisted private lines, and so at that time he, according to what Danny told me, said he had some things to bring up and I was introduced to him on the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. He had some sandwiches?

Mr. DUNCAN. Some sandwiches and colas, and I was introduced to him on the telephone and there was a mixup. Danny gave him the newsroom number, the telephone number.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what’s called the hot line?

Mr. DUNCAN. That’s what’s called the hot line--correct. He gave him the hot-line number and he was going to call and then there was a mixup and he had written it down and had forgotten it or Danny gave him the wrong number or something, and he called Danny again to get it again, and then he either called the newsroom and introduced himself to me with Danny then picking up his telephone in the control room or Danny introduced me to him on one of the other lines during the exchange of telephone numbers, and I do not remember which it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that he suggested to you that he might be able to get an interview for you with Henry Wade?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, the first telephone call--the first conversation that I had with him was concerned mainly with an introduction and was he going to be able to get in and so forth and so forth.

Since Danny indicated that he knew him or had met him before, I agreed--well, we agreed to let him in, and normally of course we wouldn’t give someone the run of the station, but it had been indicated anyway that he knew people on the staff. He had advertised with us, among other things, and so he was going to get in, and then he called back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, I was just going to say--a few minutes--and exactly, I couldn’t tell. I would say it was probably not more than 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you fix the time of each one of those calls?

Mr. DUNCAN. Not very definitely. It’s very difficult for me to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Except that you know they were before 1 o’clock?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that they were 10 minutes apart?

Mr. DUNCAN. I would say they were approximately 10 minutes apart.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on the second one that he told you that he could get the interview with Wade?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes. He said that he was there and that Henry Wade was there and did I want to talk with the District Attorney Wade, and at this time I was very anxious to do that because we were understaffed. I was alone in the newsroom. I knew that something was going on, but in attempting to get facts, I had tried to get into city hall by calling every other place I knew over there and had been unable to reach Wade, so I was very anxious to do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you suggest to Ruby on the first call that you would like an interview with Wade, or was it his idea?

Mr. DUNCAN. To the best of my recollection, the conversation with Wade was his idea. I may have said something about perhaps in cutting the telephone conversation short, but I was busy in trying to get into the city hall by telephone to get some information or something, but I did not ask him specifically to find Wade or anyone else for me, and I honestly do not know whether or not I mentioned it to him.

Mr. HUBERT. But when he called you the second time, the purpose of that call was to tell you that he had Wade available?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Wade immediately available?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, he was--Jack said that Wade was on another telephone. He asked me did I want to talk to Henry Wade and I said “Yes”, and he said, “Just a second. He’s on another phone with somebody from New York, and I’ll get him,” and then in a few moments Wade did come to the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know where Ruby and Wade were talking from?

Mr. DUNCAN. They were talking, according to Ruby, from city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what part of the city hall?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I do not. After awhile--well, at the time I guessed and I would still assume it to be at least relatively correct, that they were in the basement of the city hall somewhere around the records office or the assembly room that was used for press conferences at that time--during the assassination coverage, but that is an assumption.

Mr. HUBERT. When he did put Wade on the phone, of course you taped the interview with Wade, and you say that that tape is still available, right?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Then it was about three-quarters of an hour after that, that Ruby came over with the sandwiches and so forth?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And stayed about 30 minutes?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; 30 to 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he with you all that time or what was he doing?

Mr. DUNCAN. He came in the newsroom door about the same time--or after--he came through the newsroom door with Russ Knight who had gone over to the city hall with a portable tape record for me to attempt to get something--to get an interview there, and when I had been unable to reach Henry Wade I had asked Russ if he would go over and he said he would. He left and then it was after his departure that Ruby called and I eventually talked to him. They arrived at the newsroom door at the same time.

In talking with Russ later, I believe he said they didn’t arrive at the front door at the same time, but anyway they came into the newsroom together. He stayed in the newsroom the entire time, to the best of my recollection, until he was actually ready to leave. Then Russ went down to let him out, I believe. At least, in talking with Russ afterward I remember Russ saying something about he and Ruby had chatted on the way out or in the hall outside the newsroom.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed?

Mr. DUNCAN. He had a dark suit on--a hat, white shirt, tie, and I believe he was carrying an overcoat--I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, he brought the sandwiches over?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, and he had the sandwiches.

Mr. HUBERT. He was definitely there during your 2 o’clock broadcast?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that your 2 o’clock broadcast began exactly at 2 a.m.?

Mr. DUNCAN. Exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it last?

Mr. DUNCAN. Normally, we run 4½-minute newscasts. This could have been as long as 5 or 6 because the format changed during the assassination coverage, but I would say that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the broadcasting room with you at that time?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember mentioning his name?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, no--as a matter of fact, to be dead certain I would have to listen to the Soundscriber.

Mr. HUBERT. You do have a Soundscriber of that broadcast at 2 o’clock?

Mr. DUNCAN. Right; we have. We maintain a 24-hour taping service at the station.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that Soundscriber going to be kept permanently?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, they are kept in storage.

Mr. HUBERT. All of them or just these particular ones?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, this is done constantly. We have 24 hours a day every day tape recordings.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long a period of time do you keep those things?

Mr. DUNCAN. This--I am not sure of. This I would have to find out from the station engineering staff. I am certain though that long after others are gone, the news covering the assassination will be kept and that they are available now.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about a sort of an instrument called an Alpawna Box, the word being spelled A-l-p-a-w-n-a?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; I have never heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby in the course of any conversation with you on the telephone or otherwise mention the famous Weissman ad, are you familiar with the Weissman ad?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; I am. I do not remember. I don’t believe he did because I probably would have remembered after Ruby’s further involvement, but 1 do not believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate anything to you which would suggest that he was concerned that public opinion might place the blame for the assassination upon the people of the Jewish faith?

Mr. DUNCAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk in any way about the fact that he was a Jew or of the question of Jews or any aspect of that kind?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I am certain he didn’t because I remember being surprised, well, not surprised, but feeling it was a new piece of information when I learned later he was Jewish. The term “Ruby,” and I did not connect the thing with any physical characteristic at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a pamphlet called “Heroism”?

Mr. DUNCAN. Only in a hearsay sense.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make any comments about that pamphlet that you now identify the way you have, on the night in question?

Mr. DUNCAN. Not to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do so to anyone else--do you know?

Mr. DUNCAN. I understand from talking to Russ Knight that he did, as I mentioned, later when they were chatting in the hall at the time of Ruby’s departure, Russ told me that Ruby gave him a copy of a Life Line speech or pamphlet entitled “Heroism” and asked him to read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I did not. I didn’t see the pamphlet or the exchange or did not actually know anything about it until talking with Russ some time after.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen or spoken to Ruby after he left that night?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; well, I saw him during the coverage when I was at the police department covering the assassination--that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask for any kind of a pass, a press pass from you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; he did not. He didn’t ask for anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any press pass from KLIF, to your knowledge?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; he didn’t--not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You would know if he did have?

Mr. DUNCAN. Probably--I should think so. Press passes were short at that time, and at that time the only press passes available to my knowledge were the press passes that were connected with the Kennedy visit and not the later Dallas police press passes that were issued after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your impression of Ruby’s general attitude that night?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, repeating my trial testimony--this was the first time I had met him, so I had no real relative gage, but he did not seem out of character. He seemed--he was excited in the sense that everyone was excited. He seemed to me to be a highstrung individual, a quick sort of individual, but he did not seem overly excited and did not seem out of character.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, no; he was not grieving. If anything--if anything, he was--well, I use the word “happy” guardedly, but he was if anything happy that evidence was piling up against Oswald and that he had been charged, and the mounting of a case against him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get the impression that he himself was sort of getting a kick or a charge out of being close to the police and the news development of this historic event?

Mr. DUNCAN. Oh, I think so. I think he was to a certain degree. Of course, we run into this sort of thing all the time. Of course, the event was much more important, but I would not say that he seemed any more excited about having an “in” or being closer to it than the average person we run into at a shooting or a major accident, who sidles up to you and tries to become involved.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he explain giving you the sandwiches?

Mr. DUNCAN. As I remember there was no definite explanation. It was simply that “I figured you guys would be hungry and I brought these up to you,” with this type of an explanation, if it is one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that the sandwiches had originally been intended for the police but that he found that they couldn’t use them and he therefore brought them to you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; from the very beginning--from the telephone calls and afterward he indicated to me that they were originally intended for us, and the reason he had them at the police station was the fact that he had been unable to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. To get into where?

Mr. DUNCAN. To get into our place and then had gone over to look for one of their newsmen. His indication, and I don’t know about his whereabouts before that, or he didn’t mention them, but his indication was he came to our station first.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had an overcoat on?

Mr. DUNCAN. I believe he was carrying an overcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what color it was?

Mr. DUNCAN. It seems to me that it was a dark gray or light brown--a muted dark tone.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you wish to add?

Mr. DUNCAN. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any conversation between us off the record--that has not been brought out on the record?

Mr. DUNCAN. I don’t believe so. It seems to me the only thing we talked about were these telephone calls and that’s in.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s in the record?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we did talk off the record by telephone, but that has been developed fully and is now on the record.

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I believe that is all and I thank you very much for coming.

Mr. DUNCAN. Glad to help you out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GARNETT CLAUD HALLMARK

The testimony of Garnett Claud Hallmark was taken at 10:35 a.m. on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Garnett Claud Hallmark.

Mr. Hallmark, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Hallmark, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine that facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and so forth. Now, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter written to you by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, who asked you to come; is that correct?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe also the letter was probably dated the 22d of June 1964, and I ask you when you received it?

Mr. HALLMARK. I received it the 23d--it was stamped the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Tuesday?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well then the 3 days required for notice have elapsed. I will ask you if you will stand and raise your right hand and I will administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give about these matters will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. HALLMARK. Garnett Claud Hallmark.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Mr. HALLMARK. 2831 Quanah.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. HALLMARK (spelling). Q-u-a-n-a-h.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. HALLMARK. I am employed by Allright Auto Parks, Inc., as a general manager of the Dallas operation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they operate several parking lots in the city?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. HALLMARK. Eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. HALLMARK. I have known him, it will almost be 4 years now--over 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. I have previously handed to you a 5-page document and for the purpose of identification, I have marked the first page on the right margin as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of Garnett C. Hallmark,” and I have signed my name below that and on each of the following four pages I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each page.

I asked you to read that so that you would be able to answer the questions I am now about to ask you, and that is whether or not this Exhibit No. 1, which purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agent Arthur Carter on December 11, 1963, is a fair and correct report of the interview that you did have with the FBI agent?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; it’s a good account.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any corrections or modifications or changes to make in this?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to know whether or not you had seen Jack Ruby on the 22d of November?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I didn’t see him.

Mr. HUBERT. But on the 23d, I think, you say in your statement that you did see him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that at the Nichols Bros. parking lot right next door to your lot next door to the Carousel Club?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have a man named Huey Reeves, or did, who worked there?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; Reeves still works for me. We have lost that location but Reeves still works for me.

Mr. HUBERT. As general manager of this operation are you present at times in the different locations that you operate?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 23d, you were, however, at the operation called Nichols Bros.?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was a part of Allright Parking?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. One of the questions I want to ask you is how you fixed the time of seeing him, but I noticed that on page 2, the second paragraph, you indicate that you saw him at about 3:05 p.m. You established that time because you knew that you had a schedule that would require you to leave at 3:15, and that that enabled you to fix the time.

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you to elaborate to this extent--tell us what kind of schedule was that?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, first of all--of course, I had gone to this location to relieve this Tom Brown who is mentioned there, and just to let him get off and out of the office long enough to stretch his legs and get a cup of coffee, and I allowed myself approximately 30 minutes for that. I wanted to be at a location on Elm Street, 1920 Elm, at just about 3:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that one of your parking lots?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And your schedule called for you to be there at 3:30?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To do that you figured you would have to leave at 3:15?

Mr. HALLMARK. I wanted to leave at 3:15 to give myself plenty of time.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression then that you saw Ruby about 10 minutes prior to the time you scheduled yourself to leave?

Mr. HALLMARK. He first entered the garage at probably--at 2:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him then?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, he drove into the garage before I had ever gone into the office, and he parked at the place we normally let him park his car and got out and said he wanted to use the phone, that he was acting like a reporter. Of course, I granted him permission to walk in our cashier’s office and use the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he further identify his activities as “acting like a reporter”?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; he didn’t elaborate on that.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he convey to you that he was acting like a reporter in any particular matter?

Mr. HALLMARK. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what he said that he was acting like a reporter in connection with the death of the President?

Mr. HALLMARK. I, of course, assumed that. He made the remark to me that, I believe in the process of dialing the first one of two numbers he called, that what happened to the President was terrible, and of course, I agreed, but I got most of my information when I was just immediately adjacent to him as he used the phone there.

Mr. HUBERT. You are making a gesture there which indicates about 2 feet?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; or less.

Mr. HUBERT. You were within 2 feet of him when he conversed?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear voices on the other end of the phone?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I could not.

Mr. HUBERT. But you gathered your information from his remarks that you could clearly hear?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s, of course, been reported in this Exhibit No. 1, and you say it is correctly reported?

Mr. HALLMARK. It’s very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have mentioned in your report here on the first page that he was speaking to someone and told that person that his clubs would be closed, and then the conversation, as you put it here, switched to some remarks concerning the transfer of Oswald.

Can you elaborate on that and tell us in more detail specifically what type of remarks those were?

Mr. HALLMARK. He was--he told this person who he had established as being Ken, that he had been to the city hall and was following this thing, and he had information to the effect that the transfer was to take place that afternoon. I got the impression that he had some information and possibly wanted corroboration. In other words, he just was not 100 percent sure, but he had--he thought he knew that the thing was to take place then, but was not 100 percent sure. Then, he remarked that people started strewing flowers at the scene of the assassination, which is in the immediate locale of the county jail, so that possibly because of the congestion they would not transfer Oswald that afternoon. Oswald’s name--I don’t recall definitely that Oswald’s name was mentioned. He kept referring to him as “he”.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were aware that he was talking to a newspaper reporter, weren’t you, a Wes Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. He was talking to, if I may tell you something I found out since or I think I found out, he was talking to a diskjockey on one of the local radio stations.

Mr. HUBERT. His original call had been then to a man by the name of Wes Wise--Wesley Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. He asked for Wes Wise.

Mr. HUBERT. What radio station would that be?

Mr. HALLMARK. I believe that would be Ken Dowe with KLIF. This I think I found out since the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words; he first asked for Wes Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection is he soon discovered he was talking to Ken and so made a remark that indicated he was?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his efforts to corroborate the time of the transfer were successful or not? I mean, did you get the impression that this man he was talking to confirmed Ruby’s apparent thought that the move would be made that Saturday afternoon?

Mr. HALLMARK. I really don’t think he did. I believe that as the conversation progressed and turned out, that Ruby had more information or perhaps, and I don’t know what the other guy knew, but perhaps he just wasn’t putting anything out.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you got the impression that Ruby, who was seeking information, was not in fact getting any but giving some?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s true; and it just suited him to be putting out this information.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he seemed pleased with himself?

Mr. HALLMARK. He seemed pleased with himself; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you make the statement here that one of the remarks he made was “You know I’ll be there”. Do you recall in what context that was, I mean, what had immediately preceded that, so that we might be able to gain some light as to where he said he would be?

Mr. HALLMARK. He planned to be on the scene of the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what you gathered from that remark?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what preceded it so that we could get the basis of forming an impression ourselves of what this phrase “You know I’ll be there” referred to?

Mr. HALLMARK. The conversation that preceded that statement was that about the strewing of the flowers and the possible delay of the transfer. In other words, immediately after he said that possibly the thing would be delayed, he listened for a period of time, maybe 20 seconds and closed the conversation with, “You know I’ll be there”.

Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that that referred to the jail?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, one other thing I want to cover is that you make a statement that it was your impression that Ruby would not allow the girls who worked in his establishment either as waitresses or entertainers to make dates out of the club. Can you tell us how you obtained that information?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, in the 3 plus years that I have known Ruby, we’ve probably--I can say conservatively that we have talked 30 minutes a week about first one thing or another. Ruby was a good neighbor, and, of course, he pushed my operation there in this garage, and it was through those conversations that influenced my thinking from a standpoint of--I mean--this wouldn’t have anything to do with morals, it would be because Ruby knew that he could get himself in trouble, you know, lose his license.

Mr. HUBERT. That impression came from a series of conversations that spread over possibly 3 years?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; right.

Mr. HUBERT. All of which indicated to you that he would not tolerate the dating of his girls, but that principally he was motivated by the fact that he could get into difficulty if he did?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; true, because he could lose his liquor license.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever advert specifically to his losing his liquor license or is that an example that just simply occurs to you?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s just something that occurs to me. He had knowledge of the fact certainly that the Dallas Police Department checks on that type of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m trying to get at--do you specifically remember him saying something to the effect that I wouldn’t do that because I might lose my license?

Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t recall his ever stating that definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you thought that during the 3 years, more or less, period you probably spoke to Ruby probably 30 minutes a week at odd times?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; probably.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him express any ideas concerning a political philosophy?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever discuss international politics or ideologies?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 23d when you saw him, what was your impression of his reaction to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. HALLMARK. I described him to Mr. Carter as being a preoccupied and an intense person.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean generally so?

Mr. HALLMARK. Generally so. Ruby was--everything was either black or white with Ruby. There was no inbetween. He almost always in these conversations which I would have with him, he would probably be listening to me but he would be staring off--at anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that’s during the 3 years you knew him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and on this afternoon he was just more so. After he had closed this conversation with the diskjockey or newsman, if you prefer, he walked east on Commerce Street away from his club. In other words, he walked up past--I don’t know at what point he walked, but he walked past his competitors.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Colony Club?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; that’s right, and he was gone about 2 minutes and he came back and when he came back he stopped right outside this cashier’s cage and stood there and looked for--it seemed like 2 full minutes. He acted like he wanted to say something, but he never did until he said, “I’ll see you, Claud”, and then he went and got in his car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you form the impression then, on the 23d, that he was acting a bit differently than he usually did or has that impression been formed in retrospect?

Mr. HALLMARK. The best words I can think of to use--he was typically himself only more so.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, did you get the impression of the “more so” then or did you think about it later and realize that it was more so?

Mr. HALLMARK. I got it then.

Mr. HUBERT. You got it then and there?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t comment to anybody about it?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the 23d you had the mental reflection that Ruby is acting a little bit differently than he usually does?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and the remarks which he made. He remarked to me and the first person he talked to on the telephone about what had happened to the President was terrible. Of course, I would certainly not object to his using the phone, he has used it numerous times, but I just acted, you know, I just left him alone. I didn’t try to engage him in any conversation or anything because, or partially because of the way he was acting.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the manifestations of a difference in his attitude not only impressed itself on your memory at the time, but actually caused you to behave toward him differently than normally you would have?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; it did, although I don’t recall having anything that I wanted to talk to him about.

Mr. HUBERT. But you mentioned a moment ago that you refrained deliberately from your normal attitude with him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of the strangeness of his attitude?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I didn’t want to impose myself on his thoughts whatever they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he was worried about the effect of the assassination of President Kennedy on his own business affairs?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not except for the fact that he closed both his clubs. He had closed them the night prior and they were to be closed that night and the next, but he said nothing about the money it would cost him to close. He did ask me about the other--the neighboring places of business like his own. He asked me if I knew whether they would be open or not, and, of course, I told him that I did not know, and so he stated that they wouldn’t have nerve enough to open after they had seen his ad. At the time I had not seen his ad. I looked at it later, and he had run an ad in the paper which stated that his clubs would be closed. It was a good-sized ad for that type place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he comment about the effect of the assassination on his future business rather than on the closing for the 3 days?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; he made no comment about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment concerning his worry that for some reason the Jews might be implicated in the killing of the President on account of the Weissman ad?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I heard nothing of that nature. As a matter of fact in having known him, I don’t know, and of course, I realize that Ruby was Jewish, but I don’t believe that I ever heard him say anything related to the fact that he was a Jew. I believe I would--rather people would get the impression that he was not Jewish. This is from looking at the thing and remembering it.

Mr. HUBERT. In retrospect?

Mr. HALLMARK. In retrospect.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any sensitivity on his part because he was a Jew?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I have never. Like I say, I believe that he would--I think he would rather people have not known that he was a Jew, but that’s my thinking, just because of the fact that we have never touched upon that in any of our conversations.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a boy by the name of Larry Crafard who worked for Ruby for awhile?

Mr. HALLMARK. Now, when was that?

Mr. HUBERT. Just before the assassination of the President last year?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I do not recall that name. I did not ever try to strike up an acquaintance with any of Ruby’s employees.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, your duties cause you to move around from one place to the other?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many places did you have under your supervision?

Mr. HALLMARK. I’m in charge of about eight downtown garages, specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. You were then?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes. When Ruby first moved into the Carousel it was the Sovereign Club, and I was the manager at that one specific garage then and that was Nichols Garage, and I don’t remember exactly at what point I was made general manager and moved out, as you have described.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have sort of a headquarters office?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I headquartered--in other words, I usually parked my car there at 1320 Commerce, probably out of habit, but that was usually the first place in the morning and the last place in the evening. I generally called that headquarters at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t know any of the people who worked there as entertainers?

Mr. HALLMARK. I knew them by sight only. I never tried to strike up a conversation with any of them or any acquaintance.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else you would like to add, sir?

Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t think so--I can’t think of anything that I would want to add.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t believe there has been any conversation between us except that which has been recorded, is that correct?

Mr. HALLMARK. I believe that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. HALLMARK. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I appreciate your taking the time to do so--thank you very much.

Mr. HALLMARK. All right, thank you, Mr. Hubert.

TESTIMONY OF ALFRED DOUGLAS HODGE

The testimony of Alfred Douglas Hodge was taken at 2:55 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Alfred Douglas Hodge.

Mr. Hodge, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Hodge, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.

Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, isn’t that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was probably dated the 22d of June and you received it yesterday or the day before?

Mr. HODGE. The day before.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice before their depositions may be taken, dated from the date of the letter, which rule may have been complied with here, but in any case the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice and I ask you now if you are willing to testify at the present time?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so I may administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your name, please?

Mr. HODGE. Alfred Douglas Hodge.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. HODGE. At 6573 Kenwood.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HODGE. Fifty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. HODGE. I have a gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear any trade name?

Mr. HODGE. Buckhorn Trading Post.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. HODGE. 215 South Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that also connected with a bar?

Mr. HODGE. That’s 213--it’s the bar next door to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You operate both businesses?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Both called “Buckhorn”--one is the Buckhorn Bar and the other is the Buckhorn Trading Post?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the Trading Post sells guns?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you officially licensed to do so under the laws of the State of Texas?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I have previously today shown you a document which I have marked for identification in the right-hand margin as follows; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of A. D. Hodge”, and I have signed my name below that. That document purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Anderton and Hardin on November 24, 1963, and I ask you if that report of the interview is substantially correct?

Mr. HODGE (read instrument referred to). Well, now--this--the Dallas Police Department----

Mr. HUBERT. What line are you talking about?

Mr. HODGE. Right here--“The Dallas Police Department wanted him to check all of his records concerning the sale of the assassinator’s weapon”--I don’t recall the Dallas Police did that. I did that on my own and I called the FBI and they came down and he kind of went over the books with me, you see.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking, Mr. Hodge, of the last three lines of the second paragraph of this document, right?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where it indicates that the Dallas Police asked you to do that, and the fact is, you said you made that investigation yourself and reported what you had found to the FBI and to the Dallas police?

Mr. HODGE. I might have reported it to the Dallas police--I do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: I understand from the conversations we had prior to the beginning of this interview that this interview does not contain the entire story?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It does not contain the entire story of your participation in this matter, and I’m going to get that in just a moment by asking you to give the entire story as you gave it to me a moment ago, but this document as far as it goes, is correct, I take it?

Mr. HODGE. Now, he didn’t ask me, “Have they arrested you?” He didn’t say that. He says, “What are you doing up here?”

Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps if I question you, the differences between what this Exhibit No. 1 says and what your testimony is will become manifest, and to what extent your testimony differs from Exhibit No. 1, then of course Exhibit No. 1 will be in error, is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it this way: Let me question you and then we will talk a little while about Exhibit No. 1. What was your first contact with the entire matter of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. HODGE. When it came in over the radio that he had been killed with a 7-millimeter rifle, my wife and myself--we got our book and started checking to see who we had sold a 7-millimeter rifle to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell a 7-millimeter rifle?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; several of them--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear this report?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, it must have been right after the--I don’t even know what time it was--it was right after dinner.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d of November, is that it?

Mr. HODGE. I guess so.

Mr. HUBERT. It was right after the President was shot, I take it--some time right after?

Mr. HODGE. That was the day he was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard over the radio that he had been shot with a 7-millimeter rifle?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you and your wife proceeded to check your records to see whether you had sold any such rifle to anyone?

Mr. HODGE. And then I called the FBI and they came down. They sent an agent down and we showed him who we had sold them to, and I think later that afternoon another one came back and wanted to know who we sold the ammunition to, and I told him about three fellows that had uniforms on with a bread truck--uniforms, you know, and they took those descriptions and wasn’t going to check into that.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. HODGE. Well, that night I went home--that afternoon at 6 o’clock and Capt. Will Fritz called me and asked me to come--if I could come by or he would send a squad car out and pick me up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Captain Fritz?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, I know them all well.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that he called you?

Mr. HODGE. It was approximately 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. That night? That was 11:30 at night?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he want you to do?

Mr. HODGE. He wanted me to come down and look at the guns and see if I could identify them, or if I had ever seen them before.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that he offered to send a squad car for you?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I told him I had to go down and close the bar down and I was on my way to town and that that would be unnecessary and I would come by, and he told me to park my car down in the basement, and I said “The police may not want me to,” and he said, “Tell them I said so,” so I pulled down in the basement and I couldn’t find a place to park, and I parked in front of some cars, detectives’ cars--plain cars, and I went up on the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said something about having a dog in your car?

Mr. HODGE. I have a Dalmatian dog, watchdog.

Mr. HUBERT. You left him in the car?

Mr. HODGE. I left him in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. You then proceeded from the basement to what floor?

Mr. HODGE. The third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go?

Mr. HODGE. On the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you escorted by anyone?

Mr. HODGE. No; not until I got in.

Mr. HUBERT. You took the elevator in the basement?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got off, what happened?

Mr. HODGE. When I stepped out, three policemen stepped in front of me and said, “What do you want up here?” and I said, “Captain Fritz sent for me” and one of them went into Captain Fritz’ office and came back and two of Captain Fritz’ detectives--they were.

Mr. HUBERT. In plain clothes?

Mr. HODGE. In plain clothes, and they got me and escorted me into his office.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir; and we had just sat down and the lady on the desk that answered the phone and she said, “Mr. Hodge, your dog will not let the detectives get their car, would you mind going back down and moving it?” and two of the detectives escorted me back down.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it then?

Mr. HODGE. That was about 11:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz called you at about 11:05?

Mr. HODGE. A little after 11.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time of that initial call by Fritz?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I left my house at 11:30 and I usually get down to my store--it takes me about 20 minutes, and we close the place down at 12, the bar, and so it gives me about 30 minutes from my home to the bar, and I was finishing shaving and getting ready to leave to come back to my bar.

Mr. HUBERT. So you left your house about what time?

Mr. HODGE. About 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And that means that you got to the jail about what time?

Mr. HODGE. About 11:45 or 11:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, by the time you got the call to go back out again to move your car it was near 12 o’clock?

Mr. HODGE. It was around 12 o’clock. Yes; probably 5 minutes until 12; I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in Captain Fritz’ office when you went in first?

Mr. HODGE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald there?

Mr. HODGE. I didn’t see Oswald. I have never seen him except on TV, but Captain Fritz has one office--I don’t know which office is his, but the one on the left has a glass window in it, and when I went in this hallway, out in the hallway where all the TV cameras was, there was another hallway, and Captain Fritz waved at me--he seen me through this glass and there was several people in there with him, and I went on in a little office not quite as big as this and sat down. There was four or five people there, and the lady on the desk--the phone rang, and she said, “Mr. Hodge, you left a dog down in your car and the detectives wants to move that car and they can’t move it, and would you go down and move it,” and two of the detectives got up and went with me to the elevator and got on the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in plain clothes?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?