Chapter XXI: Front Matter (21)

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir. I had arrived in civilian clothes, and I had no other attire to put on since my uniform was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Goin change or anyone else change into uniform?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, Mr. Goin was in uniform when I saw him. Mr. Hall, of course, was not, because he never wears a uniform, nor does Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you stated that you received this call from Mr.----

Mr. DIETRICH. Harold Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you also receive a call from Mr. Hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. I can’t recall right offhand whether I did or not. Actually, I didn’t receive any call myself. My mother, if I remember correctly, received--she might have received a call from Mr. Hall, as well as Mr. Fleming. I am not quite sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, you called Mr. Fleming at his home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed that at 10:30. Are you sure that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed the time of your calling Mr. Fleming at 10:30. I asked you to reexamine that and see if that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, if I remember correctly, my mother received a call from Mr. Fleming on or about 9:45. As to my calling him at 10:30, I can’t truthfully say whether it was 10:30 or not. It was on or about that time.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had you left your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. I left home to visit the drugstore, to have a cup of coffee, I would say about 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is the drugstore from your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, about 2 miles.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go by automobile?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a cup of coffee?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I imagine I stayed there about 10 minutes; not too long.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the drugstore, and where is it located?

Mr. DIETRICH. Let’s see; well, I go to various drugstores on Sunday. I go to Skillern’s sometimes, and Dobbs House.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of which one you went to on this particular Sunday?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, I just can’t remember, because I don’t go to the same one each Sunday. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left there, you came right back home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far, in point of driving time, was that drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned the drugstore as being 2 miles away and taking 5 minutes. Does that help you in any way in fixing what drugstore it was?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, there are four different drugstores I visit off and on from Sunday to Sunday, and they are all approximately 2 miles, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. So that either the distance, the way you mentioned on the time it takes to get there would not have----

Mr. DIETRICH. Would not have an effect on the time. I would say 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I wasn’t gone. If I remember correctly, I left at 9:30. It took me 5 minutes to get to the drugstore. I spent, I guess, about 10 minutes in the drugstore. That is 15 minutes.

And 5 minutes back, was 20 minutes. I told you I arrived back at a quarter to 10, on or about a quarter to 10. It might have been 10 minutes till 10.

Mr. HUBERT. It was at that time that you received the message from your mother that Mr. Fleming had called and wanted you to call him?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. My recollection was, and correct me if I am wrong, that earlier you said you called Mr. Fleming at about 10:30. Now it appears you say that it might have been considerably earlier?

Mr. DIETRICH. I was thinking I had arrived at the terminal at 10:30. I think I called Mr. Fleming--well, I may have said that, but I really believe that I arrived at the terminal about 10:30. I called him on or about a quarter to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Called at a quarter to 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes. To tell you the truth, I don’t recall when I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave right after you called?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I left, I imagine, in about 5 or 10 minutes. Let’s see, it was about--oh, I brushed my hair and I had to get my revolver, or I cleaned it, just wiped it off.

I didn’t want to get my clothes dirty, because it was a little on the greasy side.

I guess I left about 10 minutes after he called, or after I talked with him, rather.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to go from your home to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I would say about 20 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you follow?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I left my home on Harter Road, entered North Cliff, took a right on North Cliff on Buckner, Buckner to Loop 12, Loop 12 to Central Expressway, and then I made an exit to Ross, took a right on Ross to the terminal, which is about six blocks from Ross and Central Expressway.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you left your home about 10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would have left your home about 5 minutes after 10, or 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you arrived at the terminal at 10:20 or 10:25?

Mr. DIETRICH. Along about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to you when you got to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. On arriving at the terminal, the first two people I met were Don Goin and Bert Hall. I referred to him as Bert Hall. His name is Marvin.

Mr. HUBERT. They were both there?

Mr. DIETRICH. They were in the parking area of the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your arrival did Mr. Fleming arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. Mr. Fleming arrived approximately 5 minutes after I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? What did the four of you do?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, at the time, the company officials weren’t too sure as to what their plan was, as to what they were supposed to do.

I think Mr. Fleming used the outside phone. There is a phone on the outside of the building which remains locked. We had a key to it. He opened it and called, I think, Captain Batchelor, or someone by that name, and I walked away. I didn’t overhear the conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Who opened the door to the company building, to the terminal? Did you have a key yourself?

Mr. DIETRICH. I sure did. That is why I was called down there. Yes, I had the keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Not the keys to the truck, but the keys----

Mr. DIETRICH. No, the key to the terminal. Of course, I didn’t enter the terminal until Mr. Fleming had talked with this captain. I think his name is Batchelor, or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He is with the police department?

Mr. DIETRICH. We think he is assistant to chief of police.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. DIETRICH. After Mr. Fleming talked to him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, he received instructions from him. There was a question as to which truck was going to be used, and they decided they wanted to use the larger truck, which is No. 46. It is, I guess, one of the largest armored cars in the world.

And he also found out from the captain as to when they were supposed to arrive. And then there was a question----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any information as to when he was supposed to arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t, because I didn’t want Mr. Fleming to think I was eavesdropping.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean; did he tell you what time?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; he didn’t. I think he talked with Mr. Hall as to what time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t hear that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, after he talked with this captain at the police department, there was a question of whether we should take shotguns and as to how many shotguns we were to take, and so forth, and so on. And Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall decided not to take shotguns, that revolvers would be enough. Mr. Fleming’s contention was that actually we were only going to transport Oswald from the city jail to the county jail, and that it was up to the police to provide the necessary protection. All we were going to do was to provide the transportation.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had your sidearm, but you did not put the shotgun on the shoulder as usual?

Mr. DIETRICH. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any delay in getting away?

Mr. DIETRICH. None; other than the time consumed discussing whether we would take shotguns or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any difficulty in starting the larger car due to battery difficulty?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we had difficulty starting it.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of difficulty, and how long did it take to cure it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I think about 10 minutes to start the truck; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it started?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, they backed another truck up to it, and I think they used a hotshot. They brought a cable out and connected up one battery to the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t participate in it because I was dressed up and I didn’t feel like getting dirty. It was Mr. Hall and Don Goin were the ones participating in getting the truck started.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ride from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; with Don Goin. Don drove.

Mr. HUBERT. What truck were you in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, that I can’t remember. I asked Don Goin prior to my coming in here, actually, as to which truck it was. He can’t remember and I can’t either. I think it was 49. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was not the larger truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall were in 46, which is the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you can’t remember which truck you rode in, you were talking about what number it had, but you do remember that you rode in the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. The smaller of the two; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. Don Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually follow the larger truck; or did it follow you?

Mr. DIETRICH. We followed the large truck.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, we entered Ross Avenue, took a left on Harwood, drove up Harwood to Commerce, and took a left and proceeded about one-half block and parked on the left side of the street, I would say, about 5 feet beyond the ramp that goes into the basement of the city jail or city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you passed the exit on Commerce Street from the city hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; we did. We had to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you pass the larger truck and get in front of it; or did you wait until it backed in before you proceeded further?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly; we passed the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. And got in front of it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we got in front of it, and if I remember correctly, the larger truck had difficulty maneuvering into position in order to back into the--I started to say cellar--basement. Actually, it was too large to go into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us how long it was between the time you first arrived at the terminal, considering the various things you have said happened, until you left starting off to go to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. You mean from the time I arrived at the terminal?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; until the time you left the terminal.

Mr. DIETRICH. How much time was consumed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of how long it took to make the drive from the terminal to the jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, it was a Sunday morning. Traffic wasn’t very heavy. We knew the route. We knew how to get there, and we knew the fastest route. I would say 6 or 7 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you parked, as you say you did, about 5 feet beyond the Commerce Street entrance, and until you ultimately left, did you ever leave the immediate vicinity of the armored truck that you had gone in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; I got out several times, if I remember correctly.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you walk away from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; well, just a few feet, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I said, the immediate vicinity. You didn’t go, say, 10 feet from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. I think I walked to the rear of the truck, but not beyond it. One reason why I didn’t was because I was in civilian clothes and I didn’t want to be questioned by any of the officers in the vicinity as to why I was there.

Had I been in uniform, I would have perhaps walked around a little more. But I stayed in the cab of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When did it first come to your attention there had been a shooting in the basement? How did you learn that?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t know about it until after I had left the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Until after you left what?

Mr. DIETRICH. After we left the city hall and went back to the terminal and then started for home.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know there was a shooting?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t know there was a shooting. I remained in the cab most of the time, other than the few times I stepped out to look around and observe the crowd, et cetera. We were sitting in the cab of the truck, and Mr. Hall walked up and told us, he said, “It’s all off. It’s been called off.” We didn’t question him. He didn’t elaborate in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t find out that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. DIETRICH. Nor did I hear any shot fired.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know he had been shot until after you got back to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t even know that anything had happened after we returned to the terminal, because if I remember correctly, Mr. Hall and Mr. Fleming, we never did see them upon returning to the terminal. And Don Goin and I parked the truck, got in our cars, and we had plans to meet at a coffeeshop on Ross Avenue and have a cup of coffee before we departed for our respective homes. While we were in this cafe we heard the radio playing, or heard the announcer on the news, and one of the waitresses informed us that Jack Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t notice any commotion around the jail prior to leaving?

Mr. DIETRICH. I heard a siren and perhaps it was the ambulance arriving to take Oswald from the city jail to Parkland Hospital, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You left, however, before the big truck pulled out of the entrance?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; I heard some confusion, and I thought perhaps something had happened, I wasn’t sure, but I didn’t know really what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing any police cars come up to the Commerce Street exit after the big truck had backed into that exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t remember any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a police car coming along and it backing in front of the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a police car come and park in front of your car at any time?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I faintly remember one, maybe, moving in front of us. As to how long he stayed there; I don’t know. If I remember correctly; he didn’t remain in front of us very long.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing any police car back up so that its rear was almost touching the front of the big truck parked in the exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t, because there is no way that you can--we don’t have a mirror in front--we can’t see to our rear by looking in a mirror in the front like a conventional automobile. Our only means of vision would be our side mirrors, and I don’t remember any police car backing back that was blocking the rear of the big truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Blocking the front?

Mr. DIETRICH. The front; I meant, because he backed in. May I smoke?

Mr. HUBERT. Surely; were you or Mr. Goin and Mr. Hall or Mr. Fleming wearing any kind of overcoat on that day?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. It was a rather cool day and windy. An overcoat would have felt good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any TV mobile unit vans parked on the same side of the street as you were, but closer to----

Mr. DIETRICH. They were right across the street; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any parked on the same side of the street as you, but back of you toward Harwood?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I couldn’t swear to it. Could have been. Might have been. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether there were any people moving in and out of the Commerce Street exit where the large truck was parked during the time that you were there?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I noticed a few policemen moving in and out; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people in civilian clothes moving in and out other than Mr. Fleming?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there police about the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t see too many policemen near the big truck; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any policemen on either side of the truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from what you said, you had no opportunity to look down the Commerce Street ramp at all, did you?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, about the only thing I was able to observe was when I left the truck a few minutes to walk a few feet to the rear of it.

Mr. HUBERT. But since you were 5 feet beyond the Commerce Street entrance, you only walked at the most 10 feet from it? You never did get at an angle so you could look down?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I never did. I was rather reluctant to do that, because I didn’t want to be questioned by the police since I wasn’t in uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Dietrich, I don’t think that we have had any conversation or there has been any questions or answers between you and me other than what has been recorded this evening, is that correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, that is correct? You agree with it?

Mr. DIETRICH. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

Mr. DIETRICH. I am sorry my memory was rather hazy.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. You did your best.

TESTIMONY OF EILEEN KAMINSKY

The testimony of Eileen Kaminsky was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure, Mrs. Kaminsky, is for me to say a few words at the beginning by way of introduction and then to administer the oath to you. Then, we will go on with the questioning at that point. Now, so that the record is clear, I will state again that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued in late November, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate and to evaluate and to report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to take testimony and to designate various members of its staff for the purpose of taking that testimony, and I have been designated to take your testimony here today. Our particular reason for calling you, of course, is to obtain what information we can in particular about your brother, Jack Ruby, and about the death of Lee Oswald, although if you have any information you can provide us on any of the subjects that we are concerned with, concerning the death of President Kennedy, we also would like any of that information.

I might first ask you if you received a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you received that letter?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Sunday--well, we picked it up at the post office. We weren’t home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I mentioned it is that under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3 days’ notice before you appear for your testimony, and I take it from what you have said that that provision has been complied with. Do you have any questions before we start--before I start asking you questions?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any questions about what the proceeding is about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have any as we go along, just feel free to ask me. Would you raise your right hand then and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, E-i-l-e-e-n K-a-m-i-n-s-k-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mrs. Kaminsky?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. 6724 North Talman, T-a-l-m-a-n, Chicago 45, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. July 11, 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you born here in Chicago?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you the youngest child in the family?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have seven brothers and sisters; is that correct?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; four brothers and three sisters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were married?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; October 26, 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. All my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you a few questions at the outset about your family, and I don’t know how much information you have on the subject since you are the youngest in the family, but you may----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I found that out. I didn’t know so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume that as a child and as an adult, you had occasion to talk to your mother and father about their background. Do you know, or have you heard in that fashion where your mother was born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I--it is a town in either Poland or Russia but I can’t think of it. My mother has been gone 20 years, and we never really did talk that much, although I know I have heard the town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many brothers or sisters your mother had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t--I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; do you know how many brothers or sisters he had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he had one brother who passed away a few years ago. That was the only one I knew of, and my mother had--she did have a brother who just passed away a couple years ago, too; however, I don’t know--I know she had a half- or step-sister at one time. As a matter of fact, she is still--one of the daughters of that half-sister is still living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What was the half-sister’s name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in Jewish--I didn’t even know the English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be in Jewish?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Hysura.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you spell that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they live?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, when I--I don’t even remember her, it’s so many years ago, even when my mother says--she was in her fifties. This woman I think was already in her eighties or something, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, did your mother ever explain to you how she happened to have a half-sister?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. If she did, I don’t remember. I don’t really think we--at least, I never went into it too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any information about what your mother’s father did, your maternal grandfather?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, there was some story that my mother’s mother was supposed to have been some sort of doctor. In those days, I don’t know what they considered a doctor, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supposed to have been the doctor----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother’s father or your mother’s mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I don’t know. [My maternal grandmother was supposed, to have been the doctor.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother talk about these things?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much. One of my sisters, or a couple of them, used to talk about it once in a while, but never a--not very often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you were born in 1917?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there came a time about 1921 when your family broke up. What became of you when Jack was put in a foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was also put in a foster home. I was in several. It’s pretty vague to me, to be truthful, but I remember being in a couple of them, I think, until I was about 9 years old. Then, the family came together again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother and father visit you while you were in that foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. My mother, especially. My mother did; I don’t remember about my father so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were all of the children put in foster homes at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know about the older ones, but we younger ones were. The older ones may have been--I think I might have been around--you say 1921. I thought I was about six which would bring it to 1923. Now, say the sister next to Jack is about 8 years older than I am. She would have been 14----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; right. I’m trying to think where. I know Earl. I remember Earl, one time, some farm of some kind; I guess Jack did, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a time in your life as a child that none of the children were living in the home with your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You mean not even the older ones; is that it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I imagine there might have been a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were in the foster home, what contact did you have with your other brothers and sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Very little, if I remember. I think, maybe, it seems, you know, it’s so long ago--I’m 47 now and it’s a long time. It seems to me that occasionally I would see my sisters. I remember when I was young having measles, it seemed to me my sister came, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you know about your father at this point when you were in the foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, not too much. He lived apart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that while you were in the foster home he was not living with your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that I--I know. I feel that is true.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and how old were you when you returned to the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember having a ninth birthday party and we were together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the whole family together at that point?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think everybody was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have made it 1926?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father living at home at that point?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; he wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was it before your father came back and lived in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, actually, he never did return under--how shall I say--under friendly circumstances with my mother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There was a time when he came back because he was ill and then later, after she passed away, he came back. That’s 20 years ago, he came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He came back when he was ill?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; there was a time when he was ill and he needed some attention. It’s kind of vague in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, prior to the time you went into the foster home, was your father living in the home then?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal recollection of it? I mean, when he came back.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t remember that far back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When your father was ill, how long did he remain in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. This is all vague to me. I really don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period from the early 1920’s until your father returned to the home, how often did you see him?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think I saw a great deal of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be? Would you see him once a month or once every 3 months or----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Perhaps, more like once every 3 months. I mean I can’t pin it down definitely, but it would be----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of interest did he show in the children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. He had a struggle taking care of himself. I am afraid--as a matter of fact, when the children were old enough, they tried to take care of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you explain the willingness of the children to take care of your father even though he apparently didn’t do much taking care of you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he was our father. I guess it might all boil down to that, and we did have a--quite an affection for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We often thought if my mother hadn’t been so emotional and--perhaps, things might have been different.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your father show kindnesses towards you even though--when he wasn’t living in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think he did towards the children; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things do you remember him doing?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, buying meat, clothes or shoes or things. In those days, it was difficult to obtain; depression days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living when he wasn’t living with your people?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he wasn’t?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember vaguely him living with a--you would call it now the east side, around Halsted Street or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with someone else?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, he usually had his own little--just probably a room and a bathroom and a kitchen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There might have been times that he’d have--you know, a man friend, well, a man, or a man his age.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of a date as to when he returned to the home on a permanent basis?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think it’s--perhaps, after my mother passed away. She passed away in April of 1944, so it was some time after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you have any information about his relationship with your brother, Jack, before he moved back into the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Jack always felt kind of sorry for him, you know, being--his being alone. Jack is a very compassionate person. He always feels sorry for the underdogs, so to speak.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude towards your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very fond of her. As a matter of fact, I often feel he was her favorite child.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you feel that way?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember once she was very ill and she had given him some money to hold for her. She thought she was dying, and I think it was around $15, just--I don’t exactly know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He wanted to make her feel good so he says, “Ma,” he says, “gee, you have got $85 here.”

Well, she recovered and she wanted her $85 back, and I said, “Jack, what are you going to do?”

He says, “I am going to give it to her.” He says, “It made her feel good, didn’t it,” and that was one of his expressions. It made her feel good or it made him feel good, just so it makes you feel good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was--well, I don’t think it was too long before she passed away. I’d say, perhaps, that same year because she had been pretty sickly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well now, there was a time in the 1930’s when your mother had considerable psychiatric difficulties and she was hospitalized?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack at that time give the family any help with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. What kind of help do you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did he--did he come back; did he take an interest of any sort in----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I really don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think when she was hospitalized, I think we were all together then, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time that you returned from the foster home until you were married in 1947, did you live all of the time in the family home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, during that period, do you recall the times that Jack lived in the home with you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall the specific time but he did live home quite a bit of the time, and then there were times when he--when he didn’t live home, when he lived with a boy friend or when he was old enough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was out on his own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after he reached adulthood, well, let’s take it from, say, 1929, when he would have been 18 until he went to California in 1933, do you recall how much of the time Jack lived in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he went to California, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From 1929 to 1933; that is, from the time he was about 18 until the time he went to California in 1933, how much time did he spend in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, do you remember when he came back from California?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. It’s rather vague.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know when he was out in California, though, he took care of my sister, Eva, out there. She and her son.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your sisters, which ones--which one would you say has the most information about the family background; who would be most familiar with it?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think, perhaps, any of the three because, you see, the boys are between me and the sisters so there is enough age there for them to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Have that difference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Eva----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva might and Marion might. Probably, Eva would have as much as anybody, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any recollection of your father living in the home with your mother until the time that he got sick and returned for a little while?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no; and I--you know, I am a little vague even about that time when he was sick. I am trying to think when--whether there was a time when--actually, a wall collapsed on him. You know, he had been a carpenter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t know whether it was that time or some other time. It is all very hazy; very hazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it sounds to me from what you are telling me that from the time Jack would have been 10 or 12; that is, 1921 or 1923, until he became an adult, there was no real father in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right, and even afterwards, I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. So that all the boys really grew up without a father in the home----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Does that seem accurate to you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to visit Jack in the period from the time he went to Dallas until he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I was out there twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was there this last August for the--the last 2 weeks in August with my children, and I was there the preceding year for a week and then Jack even stopped in Chicago last August, just a week I believe, before I went down there just between planes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas on the first occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was kind of run down and nervous, frankly, I wanted to get away from the children a little bit and I didn’t know where to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t remember if I called him or asked him if he’d mind if I’d come down, but whatever it was, he welcomed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I stayed a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down alone?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. The first time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay with Jack or with one of your other brothers and sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I stayed with Jack that time, all the time. This last trip, I stayed primarily with Eva because I had the two little girls and she had more--not necessarily should I say “more time,” but because of all the women being together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How old are your children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eight and 11½.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are both girls?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first time that you went down, why was it that you decided to stay with Jack rather than Eva or Sam?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I--frankly, I was--felt closer to Jack. I mean Jack has always been wonderful to me and not that I used to go to him with problems, I never had such problems, but always has been very understanding, considerate, and I just thought it would be more to my liking to stay with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you have a chance to meet any of his friends on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, as a matter of fact, that week, this master of ceremonies who reads minds--I forget his name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill DeMar?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes. He was staying there, and I asked Jack what he was doing there and--this is Jack. He says--well, he says, “He needs the money to send to his wife and kids, so why should he pay a hotel room, so I let him stay here.” And Jack fed him, too, and he was staying there that week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Where was Jack living at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think it was the--on Monterey--Monterey or Ewing, it seems to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same building that he was in at the time he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. Wait, yes; I think it was. I think it was the same apartment. They all look alike, you know, these new modern structures, and we would drive up----

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are not sure, it is better to say that you are not sure.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, on the second occasion when you were down there last August, how did--how did you happen to decide to go down on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, the kids had had a bad experience at day camp and were very restless and I thought I’d get them away for awhile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I called Jack one day and asked him, “Do you want us?”

He says, “Sure, come down,” and we did. We don’t need any reservations so we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Jack or did you call Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I called Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you lived at Eva’s house?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We were there about 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you visit Jack in his apartment at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes, we did; and the last 2--the last 2 days we stayed with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we--he was going to drive us home to the--to the train, and we--well, first we were going to go to dinner and he was going to take us back to the apartment, and we were going to leave the next day, and instead, we spent 2 days there.

As a matter of fact, the reason we stayed over, Eva and Jack had an argument and he asked me to stay over. [He believed I might make peace between them.] He felt badly and, as a matter of fact, the minute it was over, we never did get to dinner, we went back to his apartment. He had me call her and see how she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the argument about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, someone had called him person to person and she had accepted the call and it was for him and so he became angry and then, she asked him if he knew somebody, and he didn’t, and she kept repeating the name, and she sort of riled him up, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I myself would have become angry. She kept repeating it, “Don’t you know so-and-so? Don’t you know so-and-so?”

I can’t think of the name. He said, “No, I don’t”; and then, quite a few words and an argument. As a matter of fact, he pushed her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He pushed her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hurt her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think he--actually, he practically pushed her out of the car. I was a little frightened, you know, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this occur?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was on the way to the restaurant. It was--I think it is a Thursday night, about the end of August. That is all I would know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he just practically pushed her out of the car; and then, afterward, after it was over, I stayed in the car because my luggage was there. Self-preservation is instinctive, and we got back to his apartment and he had me call her and ask her if she was all right, and--because she had to take a cab back to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you remain on for another 2 days?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think that was Thursday night. I stayed Friday and I think I left Saturday or Sunday. I am not positive, one of the 2 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were--when you were in Jack’s apartment, did you notice--what could you tell us about the apartment? How was it maintained?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it was a nice, modern apartment and I believe he had a cleaning woman every week or so. Of course, a bachelor will let things go. He cooked; he made dinner for us and he let my children help him mix up something. They were very happy. It is something I don’t let them do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he was very wonderful to them.

As a matter of fact, I believe it was that Friday, it was extremely hot. It simply was 107 and there was a swimming pool attached, you know, with the apartment.

They wanted to go swimming and I asked him if he would take them because I don’t swim, and I didn’t even have a bathing suit and he wouldn’t.

He said, “No.” He said, “Some child was drowned, I believe, in a private swimming pool somewhere, not too long before that and they--no children were allowed in the water unless they are with a lifeguard.”

I think most of these apartments are rented to adults and I really wanted--I said, “Well, you are a good swimmer.” I said, “You will watch them.”

He said, “No, I wouldn’t take that chance.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice whether he had any books or magazines or things like that in the apartment?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, nothing outstanding, maybe pictures of strippers, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Paperback books, did he have any of those?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. I--I mean--I didn’t notice any. I don’t think Jack read that type of thing.

I know he read this book, Exodus, by Leon Uris.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How do you know that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, because he sent the book to my sister, Marion, and she gave it to me. He bought--it was so wonderful, I think once he called just to tell us how wonderful it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he send that to Marian?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, a couple of years ago, I think, when it first came out. As a matter of fact, I believe I have the book at home now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very much impressed by it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other books that he sent you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, not that I can recall, but I remember that because he spoke about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you remember his calling you on Friday----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN (continuing). November 22, after the President was shot?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember approximately when that was in the afternoon?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I couldn’t tell--don’t remember exactly. I know it was after the President had--it had been announced that he had passed away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe we can reconstruct it by my asking you first of all where you were when you first learned that the President had been shot?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was in the kitchen giving my children some lunch. They had both been home from school because they both had colds and then, I suddenly turned on the radio about 1 o’clock, and I heard the radio say something, the President has been shot and I--I just couldn’t believe my ears and so, I ran in to turn on the television and I felt if there were any truth to it, you know, we’d be able to see something--see an announcer and really hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And it was true, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, did you hear from Jack after that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. After the President--after, I guess, it was announced that he had died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, the telephone records we have assembled indicate that he called you about 2 o’clock Dallas time which is--I guess it would be around 3 o’clock Chicago time.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes. I didn’t know exactly, but when the FBI questioned me, they thought it might be anywhere from 1:30 to 3 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that telephone call?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, I do, very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us--tell us how this call went. Jack--you picked up the phone and there was Jack.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was crying to start off with. He said--he said, “Did you hear the awful news?”

And I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Oh, my God, oh, my God.”

He repeated it several times. He said, “What a black mark for Dallas,” and then he said----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said, “What a black mark”?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; Jack said, “What a black mark for Dallas.”

Then, he said--oh, he said, “Maybe I will fly up to be with you tonight.” And I said, “Well, I don’t think that is necessary.”

You know, I knew he was upset. You see, my sister had just been home from the hospital with serious surgery less than a week and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva, yes. She had abdominal surgery and I knew there was no one to take care of her, you know. So I said, “Well, how is Eva?”

He says, “Oh she’s terrible. When she heard this news, she’s even worse.”

I said, “You better stay there. I will call you tonight. Be at her apartment after 9, and I will call you tonight after 9.”

Then, while I was talking to him, he said--I could hear that someone else was talking to him, and I said, “Well, who is that?”

He said, “It is the porter. There is another call for me. Alice returned my call.” Alice Nichols is her name. I guess he said, “I’d call her at a time like that.” He wanted to talk to people, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I didn’t keep him on the phone too long but his voice was, you know, breaking all the time. Of course, I was--I was no help because I was in the same--I felt terrible myself, you know.

And that night, I don’t remember whether I called my sister Eva’s apartment or she called me. We never did get it straight, but we did speak to one another, and I did ask for Jack and she said, “Well, he is at the temple. He went to temple that night,” and I believe he also called my oldest brother that night, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was Jack supposed--were you going to call back for the purpose of talking to Jack or for the purpose of talking to Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was going to talk to both of them. I figured he would be at her apartment that night and I could talk to both of them but as it happened, she said he left earlier to go to the temple.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to him in any way that he ought to take care of Eva or go over to see her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes; because I said--well I, you know, naturally, we both knew she had had the surgery.

As a matter of fact, she told us that while she was in the hospital, he came 15 times in 6 days and a woman, either in the next room or the next bed, said, “Your doctor has been here again.”

She says, “Yes, he has.” She never let on that Jack was her brother because, you know, having a nightclub, he would come in at irregular hours. So, yes; I felt he should stay with Eva because I figured----

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you say this to him--I am trying to find out if you actually told Jack that or if you don’t remember, say you don’t remember.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall receiving any telephone calls from Jack while Eva was in the hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I--I recall receiving one. I believe it was just a day or two before she went. He asked me to send her some flowers.

I believe he called my sister Marion. He called us all, I believe. He said, “She was going in for surgery.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you called Eva, what did you do that night? Did you go over to Hyman’s house or did you stay home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I stayed home. As a matter of fact, Hyman came over for dinner that evening and that is one of the reasons--I don’t know whether Eva called me or I called her. She was going to call at the house. We called it “the other house.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.