Chapter XLVIII: Front Matter (48)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this opinion that you are giving us, that Jack was upset about the Weinsteins being open, in part because they were Jewish, is this an opinion which you had at the time that you talked with Jack that night or is that one that you formed later on after reading----

Mr. MEYERS. No, no; that is an opinion I had that night when I first thought that he was talking about the Weinsteins.

And the fact that he led me to believe--I will put it this way--that he was talking about them in the category of money hungry Jews is because he was so militantly against anybody bum-rapping Jews, that is a way of saying it. I don’t know how to word it. I know exactly what I want to say but I don’t know how to use the words. He thought it was a reflection on the Jews that these people would do such a thing. Let me put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything specifically that would lead you to believe that just on the basis of that conversation, or was this something that you were concluding on the basis of having known him.

Mr. MEYERS. It was a conclusion from having known him because he did not mention the Weinsteins by name Saturday night when he talked to me. All he said, and he repeated this a number of times, were, “those poor people, those poor people, I have got to do something” or, “I should do something about this.” I don’t know exactly which words he used.

This he said a few times. Now, my assumption through my conversations with him and through knowing him is that he was talking about these Weinsteins.

I have since begun to believe that he was not talking about the Weinsteins. He was talking about the Kennedy family. At least this is my conclusion; and I am not a psychiatrist or an attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, again, is that conclusion based on anything he said that night or is it based simply on the fact that later he shot Lee Oswald.

Mr. MEYERS. You mean my conclusion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. I would assume it is based on the fact that Sunday morning he shot Lee Oswald.

Now, he did a number of times mention, “those poor people, those poor people. I have got to do something about it, or I should do something about it.” And you see, you must understand, Mr. Griffin, that the assassination, of course, had occurred. The murder of Oswald, particularly by Jack Ruby, was--well I can only say the furthest thing from my mind. I just had no belief or concept--any more than Miss Taylor might pick that thing up and decide to hit me on the head with it right now. I would be just as shocked. As a matter of fact, when I found out he had done it, it was the most shocking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that before closing the conversation, Ruby said to you that he had to go downtown, or that he had some business downtown.

Mr. MEYERS. You mean Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did not say that?

Mr. MEYERS. No. The last thing he said--I will repeat myself now, and this I know is a fact. He was more incoherent than he had ever been when I talked to him that night, and he asked me to meet him for some coffee or a drink, I don’t remember exactly what he said, and I told him that I was undressed and in bed and I had no desire to get up and get dressed, that if he wanted to have a cup of coffee with me, come on down to the hotel or come up to my room. I would have some coffee sent up and we could visit. He said, no, he couldn’t do that. He couldn’t do that. I don’t think he said why. I don’t remember why. He said, I couldn’t do. I said, all right, Jack, I have no plans for tomorrow evening. I said why don’t you call me here about 6 o’clock and I said, we will have dinner together tomorrow night and he said fine and that is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you mentioned earlier when he said no, he couldn’t do that, he mentioned something about his having some business, some other things to do.

Mr. MEYERS. If he said it, I have no recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about having had a telephone call from one of his dancers who wanted to borrow some money?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, now, you see, here I am confused because I know that he sent this kid some money in Fort Worth. I read all about this. Now, whether he mentioned it to me or not, Mr. Griffin, I don’t remember. He might have. He might not have. I don’t know. But, you see, you must appreciate my position because it is difficult for me to disassociate what I have read from what actually happened. Now, I do know that he sent this kid, this pregnant kid, some money. I don’t remember his mentioning it to me Saturday night. He might have. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In thinking back on his conversation, to what extent did his conversation focus on his competitors as opposed to the extent that it focused on “those poor people, those poor people”?

Mr. MEYERS. This is Saturday night you are talking about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, you see, I don’t think I have made myself very clear. When he talked to me Saturday night, he did mention the fact that these competitors were open Saturday night and he did mention the fact of how terrible it was because of a sign of disrespect to the President and the fact that this money hungry Jew did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he use the phrase “money hungry Jew”?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes. He used that phrase to me many times. Whether he used it that night, you see, I can’t be specific.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to be if you can’t be.

Mr. MEYERS. I can’t be specific.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not clear?

Mr. MEYERS. I am not specific. Let’s say I am not factual on that. I am not exact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Now, somewhere in this conversation he swung from his competitors to these poor people. Now, this could have been early in the conversation that I had with him that night or later in the conversation, in the same conversation, that is, and when he went from speaking directly about his competitors to these poor people, I still assumed he was speaking about his competitors. My belief since, of course, is that he was no longer speaking about his competitors. He was speaking about the Kennedy family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this conversation a conversation in which Jack would pause frequently and you would say something or was it something which----

Mr. MEYERS. It was pretty much his conversation to me and me saying Jack, calm down, unwind, you know, get it off your mind, or something of this type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about your side of the conversation and tell us what things you were saying to him?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, actually, Mr. Griffin, I said very little to him other than to--I used the words, pacify him. He was obviously very upset, and again I thought he was upset because of his competition and he was upset obviously because of the assassination. My conversation to him--my words to him were nothing specific more than typical pacifying comment every now and then when he would let loose another tirade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any possibility in your mind that this conversation could have taken place after midnight?

Mr. MEYERS. No. I would be extremely surprised if that took place after midnight. I couldn’t have lost that much time. It would have to have taken place somewhere around--10 that night. It might have even been closer to 11 but it couldn’t possibly have been midnight because I was not yet asleep.

As a matter of fact, I was in bed reading, either reading or watching television, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Jack’s concern about the Weinsteins being what he apparently called money hungry Jews. In your experiences with Jack, would you say that Jack was any less interested in making money than the Weinsteins?

Mr. MEYERS. No, no; Jack was just as interested in making money, I am sure. You know, a good psychiatrist could give you the answer to this very simply. The fact remains that the Weinsteins have evidently lots of money and Jack doesn’t or didn’t, and I suppose he resents this to a degree.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your experience with Jack as to whether or not he was an aggressive or passive business entrepreneur?

Mr. MEYERS. Whether he was aggressive or passive as an individual?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a businessman. Was he----

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, extremely aggressive. Extremely aggressive. I think Jack’s entire nature is aggressive. I think his character is extremely aggressive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with his attitude toward the Jews, had you ever talked to him about any books that he was reading about the Jews?

Mr. MEYERS. No. Let me make his attitude about Jews a little clearer to you. I may have given you a wrong impression. Jack in my opinion is extremely proud of being Jewish--and we’ll put it on a personal basis--just as I am. And due to Jack’s childhood, which I have read so much about--I knew nothing about it until I read about this--and his home life, the way he matured, it is very obvious to me that Jack did have an inferiority complex, we’ll use the old cliche, and that he had become or tried to become an extrovert in order to fit in with what he thought were important people to fit in with due to his lack of formal education. He would attach himself to people from whom he thought he could learn, from whom he thought he could better himself, which, more power to him.

I think also he resented maybe to a degree of envy what some of these--what these Weinsteins were doing, first because he envied them their success, and second, because on this particular night, this Saturday night, they had done something that he felt was derogatory to his people and he would resent it, just as I would resent--and here I must put it on a personal basis, it is a stupid thing, believe me--just as I would resent the living caricature of what a Hitler would portray as a Jew or just as you would resent a living caricature that somebody might portray as the worst element in your faith, and we all have this in our faith.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Mr. Meyers, any specific episode or conversations you had with Jack about his feelings towards his Jewish background or his sensitivity toward being a Jew?

Mr. MEYERS. I have a feeling he was very proud of being a Jew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any specific conversations?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention his feelings about being a Jew from time to time in conversations that you had with him?

Mr. MEYERS. No, we just didn’t discuss it. There was just nothing to discuss between he and I on this.

You know, something else comes to my mind now. I also--it is so hard for me to separate what actually happened from what I have read. Can I word it this way?

I am reasonably sure that when he talked to me Saturday night he also said something about going to his rabbi or to the synagogue and that he was surprised that there were no special services that day for the memory of the President.

Now, again, I want to emphasize the fact that I am reasonably sure he said this to me because it seems to come into my mind when he was talking about synagogue and services and rabbis and there would have been no occasion for it other than this, at that time of the night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this have been something that you perhaps learned as a result of talking with one of his brothers or sisters?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know his brothers or sisters. I have never met them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the various times that you had seen Jack Ruby, had you ever seen him get in any fight or become violent with people?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I have never seen Jack become physically violent. I have seen him verbally bawl out people, but I have never seen him become physically violent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack ever talked to you about his associations with underworld characters--hoodlums?

Mr. MEYERS. Many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What has he told you about it?

Mr. MEYERS. Generalities. Typical--nothing specific, just typical of a man who wants to be with the ingroup, if you want to call this the ingroup, just dropping names of so-called important people that he met or had known, or so on and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever say anything to you which indicated that he had ever been a part of any criminal organization?

Mr. MEYERS. No; not--of course, you get a finer point of what is criminal and what is not. Jack did tell me, in his youth he was, well, the words he used, a hustler around Chicago, trying to make a stray buck on selling scalping tickets for various fights or hockey games or something like this. I don’t know if he was a criminal. I mean, you know what interpretation you want to put----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you ever get any indications from him that he had ever sold narcotics?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that he had ever, himself, been a part of any gambling organization.

Mr. MEYERS. Mr. Griffin, if I ever thought that Jack was involved in anything--in a narcotic or this kind of thing--I would immediately have bought back my introduction to him. I personally, now, this is--should I say this is off the record, because this is not going to be published anywhere, is it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you that it will be.

Mr. MEYERS. Published?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything that is going to be said here will be published, but we appreciate your frankness.

Mr. MEYERS. There is one thing that--what were we talking about? It slipped my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to comment about if you ever had any idea or known that he was connected with narcotics or anything like that.

Mr. MEYERS. You can put this down if you want to, but I prefer you to stop for a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have a policy of not----

Mr. MEYERS. Well, I don’t want to embarrass myself. This is all that this has to do with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. We will go off the record here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that we have perhaps talked for 2 or 3 minutes off the record here, and Mr. Meyers told us about Jack Ruby’s attitude toward people who would come to him and ask him to fix them up with one of his female employees, and Mr. Meyers stated to me that one of the things that Jack Ruby liked about Mr. Meyers was that Mr. Meyers was not one of those kinds of people who had done that.

Let me ask you this question pertaining to Jack Ruby now.

Did Jack do or say anything to you, or do you have any knowledge that Jack was making any money by offering extra curricular services for his girls?

Mr. MEYERS. I can only answer that by telling you, Mr. Griffin, that if this is so, I would be the most surprised man. I personally have absolutely no knowledge or indication of this in any shape, manner, or form, and my reason for being so positive is that I don’t think Jack ever lied to me. He would have no reason to lie to me in any of our conversations, and that he made it a point to tell me that one of the things that he detested about people who would try to impose on their friendship with him to get him to influence any of the girls in his club to go with them.

He made it a point to tell me that he didn’t approve of this type of thing. He said what they do when they are out of here is their business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any indication, any information, that Jack Ruby was a homosexual.

Mr. MEYERS. I have been asked that question by the FBI. If Jack Ruby is a homosexual, I know absolutely nothing about it. He certainly never indicated to me in any shape, manner, or form.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me now switch from Jack Ruby to some of your own activities. Let me ask you have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever been a member of any political group, let me state it, have you ever been a member of any group who lobbied for any bills or----

Mr. MEYERS. Let me answer by telling you this. I have a daughter who is a nuclear chemist and who has worked at Argonne and various nuclear reactors. I have a son who was in the ASA for a couple of years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the ASA?

Mr. MEYERS. Army Security Agency, who had a crypto clearance and I and my wife and my family and my wife’s family have been investigated two or three times by various agencies who have to do with these things, and there is absolutely no record of any subversive, Communist, or neopolitical organization or any of this type.

Now, I will answer these questions one by one as you ask them of me if you want me to, but these facts have already been established through my son and my daughter.

You see, when Vicki went to work for Argonne, she had to get a security clearance, and Ralph was in this operation, Ralph was stationed someplace outside of Turkey, and to this day he can’t tell me what he did. I said, “Ralph, what were you actually doing.” He said, “Dad, if you don’t ask me I won’t have to lie to you.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen Jack Ruby at any time since November 24?

Mr. MEYERS. I have been tempted, but I decided the thing to do is to stay away from him. I have been to Dallas any number of times since, but I don’t see where I could do him any good by seeing him, and I certainly can’t do myself any good by seeing him. He doesn’t need me.

I will tell you this. Had I been called--for any reason had I been called to testify at his trial, I would have testified.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen a gun in Jack Ruby’s possession?

Mr. MEYERS. You mean in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either in his pocket or----

Mr. MEYERS. I have seen a gun in his hands.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many different occasions?

Mr. MEYERS. One occasion I remember distinctly. I saw on one of my trips to Dallas--I don’t remember which one it was--I stayed with Jack until he closed the club and then we went from there and got his car and went to have some coffee or something, and then we said goodby. He went home and I went home. When he left the club he had a money pouch, I suppose you would call it, and he always kept his car in the garage adjacent to his club. He opened the trunk of his car and opened a little bag that looked to me like a little airplane bag, and he put the pouch in this bag, and a gun.

Now, I am actually trying to remember, although I am almost positive the gun was in the bag. In other words, I don’t think he took the gun out of his pocket and put it in the bag. I think it was in the bag and then I said to him, “Jack, why do you carry that damn thing?” He said, “Well, you never know. You have got money around,” and so forth and so on.

I said, “Well, it is yours. You do what you want to. Include me out.”

I have a very healthy respect and fear for those things.

Now, the gentlemen from the FBI asked me if I knew whether Jack Ruby carried a gun, and the answer I would have to give you is the same I gave them. I don’t know. I don’t know if they were carrying a gun. They had their coats on. Maybe he did have a gun, maybe he didn’t. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversation with Jack Ruby Thursday night, November 21, at the Dallas Cabana, do you recall an incident in which Jack Ruby was angry at the head waiter?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I don’t. I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you----

Mr. MEYERS. That this happened while he was at the table with me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. I am asking you if you recall it?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t recall it. I have no recollection of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if you can identify for us a couple of people--a person by the name of Elsa Hacker?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes; how in the hell would she get into this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a business associate?

Mr. MEYERS. No; this is a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of William Heiman?

Mr. MEYERS. William Heiman?

Mr. GRIFFIN. H-e-i-m-a-n.

Mr. MEYERS. He was my former employer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of Chris Diaz Carlos or Carlios.

Mr. MEYERS. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chris Diaz Carlios, Puerto Rico. Do you know any people in Puerto Rico?

Mr. MEYERS. No; nobody. That is, I don’t know--offhand I couldn’t tell you of anybody I know in Puerto Rico.

I have got to ask you this question. How did Elsa Hacker get into this thing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t answer the question for you.

Mr. MEYERS. If there was anything more farfetched, this would be it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I say I can’t answer that.

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, my goodness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven’t discussed here which you think might be relevant?

Mr. MEYERS. Really not--I mean--we have talked about it. The only thing that I discussed with the FBI other than what you and I have talked about is, of course, my personal feelings about Jack, and I have given you indications of these as I have gone along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us.

Mr. MEYERS. Fine, I hope so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we haven’t interrupted your schedule too much.

Mr. MEYERS. Just took a day out of my life, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, fine.

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t think I have left anything out of any consequence, actually. There is really nothing. I tried to think if there is anything that I could add to this and I can’t, other than, as I say, my own personal opinion of what the heck went on, this is beside the point, because it is all over and done with, more or less. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

AFFIDAVIT OF WILLIAM KLINE

The following affidavit was executed by William Kline on July 31, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Webb, ss_:

William Kline, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:

1. I am Assistant Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.

2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various parts of the United States.

3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am informed represented the _New York Post_, nor do I recall being interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the “Nation Magazine.”

4. With respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, I have no personal knowledge whatsoever of any check made on him by the United States Public Health Service, Laredo, Texas, either upon his entry into or exit from Mexico in 1963.

5. I have no personal knowledge whatsoever that any agency of the United States Government maintained a surveillance of Oswald’s movements, and I have never indicated to the contrary to any news reporters.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964.

(S) William Kline,
WILLIAM KLINE.

AFFIDAVIT OF ORAN PUGH

The following affidavit was executed by Oran Pugh on August 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Webb, ss_:

Oran Pugh, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:

1. I am Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.

2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various parts of the United States.

3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am informed represented the _New York Post_, nor do I recall being interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the “Nation Magazine.”

4. In any event, all information supplied by me to news reporters was not based upon my personal knowledge; rather, all such information was supplied to me by my assistant, William Kline.

5. I recall having advised news reporters of the following information:

(a) United States citizens are not required to register or check-in with the Immigration and Naturalization Service either on entry to or exit from Mexico.

(b) Lee Harvey Oswald checked into the United States Public Health Service, International Bridge, Laredo, Texas, upon his re-entry into the United States in October 1963.

(c) The Immigration and Naturalization Service does not presently have, nor has it ever maintained a file containing information concerning Oswald’s trip to Mexico in 1963.

(d) The Immigration and Naturalization Service maintained a file with respect to Oswald’s visit to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and his return to the United States together with his wife and child.

Signed this 26th day of August 1964.

(S) Oran Pugh,
ORAN PUGH.

AFFIDAVIT OF J. E. CURRY

The following affidavit was executed by J. E. Curry on August 10, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS,
_County of Dallas, ss_:

Before me Eunice Sorrells, a notary public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. E. Curry, chief of police, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

This affidavit is prepared in response to a letter of August 5, 1964, from J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin pointed out in his letter that on page 175 of my testimony before the Commission in response to a question by Representative Ford, I stated that during a showup of Lee Harvey Oswald a witness to whom Oswald was shown did not identify him as the person who killed Officer J. D. Tippit.

On page 176 in response to questions by Mr. Rankin I stated that Mrs. Markham did identify Oswald as the man who killed Officer Tippit.

The answer shown to the question posed by Representative Ford that Mrs. Markham did not identify Oswald--is in error. The first time Mrs. Markham was shown Oswald, she positively identified him as the slayer of the officer.

Signed this 10th day of August 1964.

(S) J. E. Curry,
J. E. CURRY.

TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN

The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 12:35 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin.

Mr. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.

I understand that a letter was written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President’s Commission, which however was not delivered because I don’t think they had the right address. That means of course that you have not had written notice of the taking of this deposition and under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it, and I ask you now, since you have not received the letter, whether you are willing to waive the notice and go ahead and testify now without the notice?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you rise then so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you’re about to give at this time will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address, Mr. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. 1054 West Allen.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you work for a company?

Mr. CARLIN. I am contracting on my own in the aluminum business; screens.

Mr. HUBERT. You are self-employed then, is that right?

Mr. CARLIN. You can call it that, what employment that I have.

Mr. HUBERT. What company do you sell for?

Mr. CARLIN. Various companies--whichever one makes me the best deal on the aluminum screens that I sell--Southwest, New Aluminum, Webb Aluminum.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. CARLIN. About 3 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your employment prior to that?

Mr. CARLIN. Part of the time I worked for the Motel Drug Service. Other than that, I haven’t been working.

Mr. HUBERT. Motel what?

Mr. CARLIN. Motel Drug Service.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. CARLIN. We supply sundries to the lobbies of motels for traveling people.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in Houston on November 21, 1963, that’s the day before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I know I was traveling--the day the President was shot, I was in Louisiana. The day before--I have some newspapers that I got from Houston--I do not know the exact date.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you doing in Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. We were servicing motels. We were servicing motels with drugs for the motels.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was your specific employer there?

Mr. CARLIN. Jerry Bunker.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?

Mr. CARLIN. He lives here in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I don’t know the name of the street but he did live at Ridgemar Plaza.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an office there?

Mr. CARLIN. He uses his apartment as his office.

Mr. HUBERT. You “serviced”, you say, various motels?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Under his direction?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually brought the products there?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--well, my primary purpose was to sell the accounts. Of course, I did help him service them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile or a truck?

Mr. CARLIN. A station wagon.

Mr. HUBERT. And you carried these sundries around?

Mr. CARLIN. With us; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And whatever outfit the motel needed, you sold that to them?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right and of course we would put in these cabinets, 5 by 5, in the lobby of the motel and stock it with razor blades or hair spray and headache remedies--all these things that people traveling would need.

Mr. HUBERT. You say “we”, who was involved?

Mr. CARLIN. Mr. Bunker; Jerry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel together?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that he was with you on November 21?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And on November 22?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; on any out-of-town trip I’ve ever been on, he’s been with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you specifically recall that you were in Houston on the day before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m trying to recall whether it was the day before. I know I was there a day or so before. I don’t know if it was the exact day before.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you were in Louisiana on the day the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of Louisiana?

Mr. CARLIN. We were in New Orleans at a large motel and I don’t remember the name. We did not sell that particular account, but we were there in the process of selling the account when we got the news that he had been shot and we walked from there into a club that they have in the motel and watched it on TV.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you continue your selling tour then?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to New Orleans prior to the 22d, that is to say, immediately prior?

Mr. CARLIN. We were there, I believe, the day before, part of the day before or maybe this was--what I’m thinking is that we drove all night from Houston to New Orleans. Now, this is just like walking across the street last week--you don’t remember or you don’t know that you’re going to have to remember.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember you were in New Orleans when the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first day you had been in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you had driven all night to arrive in New Orleans on that day?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And furthermore, I think you said that you had driven from Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have put you then in Houston on the 21st?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you were there for the purpose of servicing certain motels?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which ones you serviced?

Mr. CARLIN. In Houston?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. The Vagabond--a very large one downtown--I think The Carriage House, and then a number of smaller ones--five or six smaller motels, which the names of them I don’t recall, but that’s still not the biggest one--the biggest account down there, and I can’t think of it. It’s downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Houston altogether?

Mr. CARLIN. Again, I cannot be sure. I would say a day.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you were there only for the 21st or possibly the 20th too?

Mr. CARLIN. It could have been the 20th also. I’m not sure--I can’t remember the dates as to when I left or where I was at the time, but I do know I was in Houston before the President was killed and I do know I was in New Orleans the day he was killed, but the exact date, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you start that tour from Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. This--again--as far as the date, I cannot say either.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any other places--you started in Dallas, didn’t you?

Mr. CARLIN. I think we did. I think we went to Dallas to pick up the drugs--again--we went different ways. Sometimes we would go to Waco and Austin and then to Houston and sometimes we go from Dallas--the other highway straight down to Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been out several days?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; as far as the date that I left or the date that I was in a certain town, I cannot say--again.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what places did you service in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Actually--I can take you to them but remembering the names--it seems as though it was The Caravan and then there was one particular one we were trying to sell to which we went back about three times and it was right across from the airport on Airline Road.

Mr. HUBERT. The Hilton Inn?

Mr. CARLIN. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Was it The Hilton Inn?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Again--a day and a half or 2 days. When we took these trips, it was a mad trip--we worked all day and would drive all night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay at any place in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; at the Sugar Bowl.

Mr. HUBERT. The Sugar Bowl Motel?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave it?

Mr. CARLIN. We stayed all night there and we left the next day after making a number of calls, we left the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you left?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It seems as though, and you probably know better than I do--the President was killed on the day that we left. It seems as though it was this way, but I’m not sure, but probably if I had time to think it out and talk to Mr. Bunker, I could tell more specifically. I know he does have the dates that each account was serviced.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s your thought that you possibly spent the night of the 21st at the Sugar Bowl Motel in New Orleans or the night of the day the President was shot, in that motel?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know we spent a night in New Orleans. I know I was there and it was raining at the time the President was killed, and I know it was in the afternoon. As far as the specific date, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. But did you spend the night in New Orleans after the President was killed or before? Was it the night before or the night of the shooting that you spent the night?

Mr. CARLIN. I think--I am not definitely sure, but I think the day he was killed--that night we spent in New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. And the night before you drove up from Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems like the night before we drove up and we checked into a motel and we changed clothes and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you were in Houston that the President visited there, would that help your memory any?

Mr. CARLIN. That the President visited in Houston?

Mr. HUBERT. That the President visited in Houston.

Mr. CARLIN. At the time that I was in Houston I don’t recall him visiting there; no. He may have, but I don’t recall it now.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. We drove back. I think we came through East Texas--we drove around--no, we couldn’t have gone through East Texas, could we?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stop any place outside of New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Other than to eat, I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you got to Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think we came to Dallas, or did we--I really don’t know. Oh, wait a minute--it seems that we came to Dallas to pick Mitzi up.

Mr. HUBERT. To pick who up?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen--I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been a Saturday night then?

Mr. CARLIN. Well.

Mr. HUBERT. It was the day after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. We have taken so many trips and they were all so wild--I had no idea we would have to remember dates, times, or places.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was the day after the President was shot that you got back to Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I can’t even remember the circumstances under which we came back on--why we came back quickly--except that we always make every trip in a hurry.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you recall that it was on Saturday the 23rd of November, that you came to Dallas from Fort Worth with your wife, Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the date or which circumstances or what reason that I come to Dallas. Now, can you tell me what you’re talking about specifically?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that there was a question as to whether or not your wife Karen would be working at the Carousel that night?

Mr. CARLIN. I do recall it, but I do not know the date. I know one night we went over to see if she was going to work; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think from your previous deposition you fixed the time of that?

Mr. CARLIN. Over quite a bit of thinking, but as far as positively--as I told Mr. Conkle--we cannot remember dates or times, especially this far back. We had no idea we would have to remember them.

Mr. HUBERT. But that was the same night you came back or arrived back in Fort Worth from this trip to New Orleans--from New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. The night we went to see if she was going to work after Kennedy was killed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t think so--let me see--no; I don’t believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now you remember that Ruby shot Oswald on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. CARLIN. I know I was home on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, the night before that, you and your wife had come to Dallas and you had called Ruby and as a matter of fact, made an arrangement to borrow $5 from him?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, was it on that day that you had driven from New Orleans to Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though it would be, but I cannot say definitely whether it was or not. I really don’t remember whether that was the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember that you left Fort Worth to come to Dallas only a short time after having arrived back from this trip?

Mr. CARLIN. As far as my trip to Houston and New Orleans and back in relation with Ruby and the time he killed Oswald, had anyone not said something to remind me of the two, I would never put them anywhere near each other, but I guess after talking to you--I guess they were near to each other, but I cannot say the exact times that I left and what times I was in and at what time or the exact time I came back. I do know it was very near there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, first of all, let’s fix it this way--that you were definitely in New Orleans the day the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so. This is the only thing I know definitely--that I can definitely say.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that you drove back from New Orleans to Dallas on that day?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; it’s definitely possible, but as far as knowing for sure whether I did or not, I cannot say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive back from New Orleans to Fort Worth by day or by night?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe at night, but again, we’ve made many of these trips to the same places, stay in the same places, and calling on the same accounts.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was trying to get at was whether or not you would remember this rather long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and on to Fort Worth, followed up by a trip with your wife back to Dallas on the night you borrowed the $5 and whether all that occurred on the same day, or do you recall what that day was?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I understand what you’re getting at, but as far as saying whether it came on the same day, I can’t recall. By the way, the account I was trying to think of in Houston is The Tidelands, if this means anything. I know that we were depressed as far as the President being killed and I remember making the statement I didn’t feel much like working, but on the other hand, I don’t recall whether we left just after finding out that the President was killed, and drove back then, or we might have started during the daytime and drove back in there early in the morning and then going to bed and getting up the next day and driving to Dallas. I’m saying I don’t recall whether this was the way it was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you otherwise remember what you did on Saturday the 23d, the day after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I don’t even remember where I was at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we do know that you were in Fort Worth, at least in the evening?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you came back to Dallas with your wife?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether you had been at home all day on Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m sorry--it doesn’t. I’m not evading anything, I just cannot remember the specific time of what I was doing. I know as far as the incident of going to Dallas and I know what I did when I went to New Orleans and Houston, but as far as the particular date that you’re thinking of now--I can’t recall what I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records of the Sugar Bowl Motel would show the night you were there, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so.

Mr. HUBERT. And it would have been the next day that you drove back?

Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure.

Mr. HUBERT. So--no, it was not necessarily the next day--you think it might have been the next day that you drove back to Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. Now, we have at times worked New Orleans first and come back through Houston. I don’t think we did at this particular time, but again, we’ve made these trips a number of times, and both of us being very tired at all times and not even caring what time it was or where we were, we were trying to get the work done and get back.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were in New Orleans at the time you heard the news about the shooting of the President?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you were at some particular place?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I was in a large motel.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of that one?

Mr. CARLIN. It was on the same highway that the Hilton Inn is on but downtown, down near town. It was right on the--it’s near the Thunderbird Motel, but it’s not the Thunderbird Motel.

Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?

Mr. CARLIN. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?

Mr. CARLIN. I know The Tamanaca is right in there but I don’t recall if that’s the one. It’s a very large motel, very nice, and the restaurant sits right on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it be Motel DeVille?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe so--I believe that is it. At the time of hearing that the President was assassinated, I was in the manager’s office and he was busy, and we left there and walked right around the corner to a private club, which the doors were open and the TV was on, and we sat and watched the news report.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did after and how long you stayed there, and what you did after you left that place?

Mr. CARLIN. No; not exactly. We possibly could have left right after that for Fort Worth, or we might have spent the night and left the next morning. As far as saying specifically, I do not know. There have been times when I would come in from a trip and get to Dallas in time to pick Karen up, and there have been times I have come in at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning--sometimes even daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you traveled from Fort Worth to Dallas, that is, the night of the 23d?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? How did you go?

Mr. CARLIN. You mean--was I in a car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. Tammi True brought us.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought you from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming in?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen didn’t know if she had to go to work or not, and I believe--I’m not sure of this, but it seems as though Jack Ruby owed Tammi some money or something and she was going to change jobs and she wanted the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. CARLIN. We went to the club first and parked at the parking lot between the Colony and Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Nichols Garage, isn’t it?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The door was locked, so we went to the Colony.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to drink then?

Mr. CARLIN. Did I have anything to drink?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know that we were practically broke, just some change is all we had, so I don’t know whether we had anything to drink or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that at all?

Mr. CARLIN. No. I know for sure that at least Karen drank a coke and possibly I did--I don’t know if I had any alcohol at the time or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But whatever you did have, you paid for it?

Mr. CARLIN. Again, I don’t recall--Karen had some change in her pocket, in her purse.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been either you or Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so--I’m not sure. At times we never paid for anything when we went in the club. He just gave us a drink.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mr. CARLIN. Crafard?

Mr. HUBERT. Who worked at the Carousel?

Mr. CARLIN. There was a man by the name of Larry--I don’t know his last name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call him on Friday night, the 22d, the night the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. The night the President was shot?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to him on the night before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think I was in town the night before he was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. No; this would have been a long distance call?

Mr. CARLIN. No. While I was in Houston, I believe I called Karen--I don’t know if it was this particular trip or not, but I did notice some receipts from the telephone company that I had that there was a call from Houston to Dallas charged to my phone. The reason I know this is so because I turned the receipts over to my CPA the other day and he was asking which calls were business and which ones were not and I had to mark them off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall a call received by you at The Vagabond Motel in Houston at 4:38 on the morning of the 21st, and that would have been Thursday?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember I was called that morning; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who called you, do you remember?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe Karen called me.