Chapter XXIII: Front Matter (23)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say the Communist Party or did he say Communist philosophy or Marxist doctrine or something like that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t Marxist but it seemed to me like he said the Communist Party or the Communists----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be sure at this point whether he said the Communist Party or whether he said philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I can definitely be sure he said the Communist Party or the Communist, I can’t be sure whether he said the Communist Party or the Communist doctrine or what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Something about Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure whether it was the Communist Party, the Communist doctrine or the Communist philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And during these conversations what attitude had you indicated?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I wasn’t interested. They knew this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he continued to----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They continued to, just little different things that would be said. I can’t remember offhand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you argue with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I never argued with him. Like I said I didn’t want to jeopardize my job there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would these conversations last?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Anywhere from maybe a couple of minutes to 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all occur up there in the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they never approached me out of the shop. The only one other man that ever give me a bad time was Lawson Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody, was anybody else--let me ask you this. Did these conversations continue after you returned from military service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson Jaffe approached me one time after I returned from the service, and I can’t remember exactly how it all come about or what it was he said, but anyway he made some reference that I would have certainly looked a lot better in a good military uniform. He said, “You looked very, very silly in that Navy uniform.”

And that made me mad and I said, “Well, I suppose I should have been in the Russian Army or something.” I said, “That would have probably made you happier.” He said. “Well, you would have been on the right side of the fence at least.” And I said----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it who said this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam’s nephew. I said, “That is your opinion,” and I said, “I will keep mine.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present during this conversation?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Sam was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the conversations and all the rest of the conversations that took place up in Jaffe’s----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would always approach me whenever Sam was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. When Sam was there nobody said anything about this, concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in sympathy with these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if he was he certainly didn’t want me in there. I can’t say that Sam had anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking with me, especially Phil Jasser.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any children who were living in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I couldn’t even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon, told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Marion would you guess?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say around 28 or 29.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She was about 12 years older than you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he have any other children?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the only daughter that I knew of living in Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don’t know. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with Seymour who?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jasson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have any conversations with you about communism?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they never--I can’t actually say. Their comments would more or less be made to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don’t believe directly at me but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken it to have been directed at me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that all of the conversations that you had with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the one conversation you had after you got out of the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had, he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had more or less shied away from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first come to think that these men were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early part of 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, before this you indicated that one of them had asked you to join the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, you mean when I knew all of these men belonged to the Communist Party?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when did you know that any one of them----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1942 that was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, Phil Jasser spoke to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed the opinion then that Phil Jasser was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any of these men that you have mentioned whom you don’t think were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you have indicated you didn’t think Sam Jaffe was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Sam Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his son-in-law, Max Pritcher? Do you have any doubts about his being a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was always there at the meetings; whenever they were going to have a meeting upstairs why he was always there. They would all be up there in the afternoon and they would talk about being at the meeting at night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people attended the meetings that you are talking about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know; because the days or the evenings that they had their meeting, I had never been in the building, but I would judge there must have been quite a few from the list of names that I picked up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never attended any of those meetings; did you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time the meetings took place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I couldn’t tell you that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did they take place in the afternoon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was in the evening, usually at night, anyway it was after everything was closed, after 5:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How many of these men would come to your shop at any one time before these meetings?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Very seldom would there be over three or four at any one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they do--what would they do when they would come into your shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would go into the office with Sam and usually talk about different ones who were going to come and things like that. Whenever they got to talking about what the meeting was about I never overheard anything like that because they usually lowered their voices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when they said--what you would do is see two or three men come into the shop and they would go into Sam Jaffe’s office. They would have a conversation but you wouldn’t know what the conversation was about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, then upon what do you base your conclusion that the meetings that you think they had upstairs were Communist meetings?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, back at that time there was no actually secret among any of them to the fact--they didn’t actually publicize it, don’t get me wrong, but they didn’t deny that they were Communists, and Sam, of course, had told me that the majority of them were all Communists.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe had told you that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and told me not to listen to them and not to pay any attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that his son-in-law, Max Pritcher, was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he said that Max and all of them, and he said, now he says, “I don’t think Max or Seymour will ever say anything to you because,” he says, “I have given them definite orders not to say anything to you,” and he said, “I don’t think Lawson will ever talk to you.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you don’t have any knowledge, though, do you, as to whether these people were what one would call card-carrying members of the party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; this I couldn’t say, at least I had never seen any of them with a card or none of them had ever shown me a card.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that these men were doing anything other than discussing Marxist philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think they was--I think that is all they talked about. I know, one of the main things they used to get into the biggest argument about was who was doing the most during the war Russia or the United States, and Russia, of course, they said was doing everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to say from your observations that you don’t know whether there was anything more than a philosophical discussion or general discussion of political ideas taking place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, that would be the only way I could put it because I never knew of anything else that they----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any information that there was any sort of espionage or anything like that going on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you make the statement that, for example, Max Pritcher was a Communist, what you are saying is that he discussed with these other men the Communist philosophy.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. How so much better if they could get the United States to see their way, and I don’t know, they just didn’t agree with anything the U.S. Government done in any way, shape or form. This is, I suppose, one reason that turned me more or less against all of them, I mean, because that and the fact that Lawson Jaffe and everyone of them at one time or another ridiculed the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends or family about these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. My mother knew about it, and, of course, I suppose I said something to my father, although I was--my father and I didn’t talk too much. He was never home, and I never saw him too much. And then, of course, after I was married why my wife knew about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any friends about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have never reported to any government agency the fact that you thought these particular men were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. How could I prove it? The only time--but I did report at one time, and this was after I came back from the service, and I went up there one morning, I knew they was having a meeting upstairs the night before because so many different ones had come in and apparently this must have been a real rally meeting because they were coming in from Chicago and several different places and this is one of the times, this was to my opinion, to the best of my knowledge, this was the last time that I met the man that they called Jack Rubenstein, and he came in with Seymour Jasson, and one or two other men from Chicago. And the next morning when I went back to work they had taken one of the chairs out of the shop and I had to go upstairs to the hall and get the chair.

The door wasn’t locked and I went in and I picked the chair up and there was a table in there. Well, there were tables down both sides of the hallway and then one across the front of the room, and there was a sheaf of papers on the table up in front where our chair was, and I didn’t really pay any attention to it then until I happened to glance at it and there was a list of names and to my recollection there were two or three sheets full of names on there, and I glanced at the first few of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe these sheets of paper?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, all it was was, I would say, typewritten paper, typewriter paper, similar to typewriter paper. It might have been a little longer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the names handwritten or typewritten?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The names were all typewritten. There were no addresses, if I remember correctly there were no addresses, and the first few names I looked at and there was Lawson Jaffe at the top, I think he was the first one, I don’t believe I can put them right directly in order and I can only remember the first four or five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how many names were there altogether would you estimate on this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There must have been 100, 150, three pages of them typewritten and how many names they could get on one page I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us who the names were on the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first one I can remember there was Lawson Jaffe, Herb and Morton Pazol, Morton Standt and Shuster’s name, and I can’t remember what his first name was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he was in the clothing business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was in the clothing business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a garment workers union that was upstairs?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or a clothing workers union?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe it was garment workers. The only one that I can think of that it might have been was the automotive workers union hall. I don’t even know why I think that because that is the only one that I can think of that could have been up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What industries were there in Muncie at the time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was Borg-Warner Corp., Chevrolet, Delco-Remy, Ball Brothers, who made Ball fruit jars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the automobile industry the big industry in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the biggest one I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any clothing manufacturers?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the electrical industry? Was there the electrical industry?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time; no, or to the best of my knowledge, there wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any heavy industry such as steel mills or----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; there were several factories but like I said most of them were all either making parts for automobiles or--there was no assembly plants there but it was all----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us any other names you remember on the list.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Seymour Jasson and Max and Harry Pritcher was on there, and if I remember correctly, although I can’t swear to this, but it seems to me that Jack Rubenstein was on there, sixth or seventh down on the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that the name Jack Rubenstein was on there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was another man whose name wasn’t Rubenstein, it was Rosenstein, I believe, Rosenstein I had never heard of or I never met, I had heard of him but I had never met him. But Rubenstein I had met on two or three different occasions and when I seen it it more or less, I wondered at the time if he was actually a member, because he had never said anything to me concerning it. But there was a Jack, and this is one reason why I say it was Jack Rubenstein because I can’t recall what Rosenstein’s name was but it wasn’t Jack, and this fellow’s name was Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What you remember most clearly is that on this list there was a man whose name was Jack?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right; and then the rest of it started with an “R” and there was a “stein” on the end of it and that was as far as I got. I laid it back down and I got to thinking about it and I said, “Well, Lawson Jaffe, you give me a bad time and I will just give you a bad time,” so I picked it up, folded it up, put it inside my shirt and took the chair down to the shop and I thought I would give this to the FBI.

They were in Indianapolis and I suppose I should have called them long distance and told them I had it but I didn’t, and Merv Collins was the chief of detectives and also my wife’s uncle and I thought I would give it to him and he would give it to them so he was the man I gave it to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He said, “I will see it gets into the proper hands.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew about this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He didn’t seem at all surprised. But he said, “I will see that these get into the proper hands.” I told him what I thought this was or what they were, I believe this was a muster list of the Communist Party that have been holding meetings here and I said, “I know this.” I said I have known of several meetings and they have had and I said I have heard them when they all come up that they were holding a meeting that night and I said I went up there and this list was on the table and I said I thought they ought to be given to the proper authority and he said, “I will see that it gets into the proper hands.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you retain that list before you gave it to Mr. Collins?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I put it in my shirt and I think that was about, it must have been around, 9 o’clock in the morning, between 9 and 9:30, and then I went out of the shop, just shortly thereafter because it was burning a hole in my belly, the thing was. I knew I didn’t want to hold onto it and so I made the excuse of getting out of the shop and going for a cup of coffee, I can’t remember what it was that I told Sam I was going to do, so I took it directly from there over to Merv Collins and back to the shop. Just so I got it off my--that is all I was worried about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when was the next time that you had occasion to think about the names that were on that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, actually I regretted, and I still regret in a way that I didn’t actually take time to look, read all the names but I didn’t. All I did was look at the first few and seen who they were and now these were boys who had at one time said something to me or indicated that they were Communists, and so I just figured they all were. And I figured if it was given to the proper authorities they could investigate and find out for themselves or find out for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever inquire of Mr. Collins what had become of that list after you gave it to him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because actually, I don’t believe there was any law against the Communist Party at that time unless they was doing actually sabotaging or teaching the violent overthrow of the Government or something like that and as far as I know none of these men were practicing anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that in the late forties and early fifties when the country was very interested in these kind of activities. Senator McCarthy and people in the Congress were active in this, is there any reason why at that time you didn’t make known your experience in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I had turned the list in, and so I just took it for granted if they wanted to talk to me about anything about it that they would have contacted me, and it never dawned on me, that Merv never turned it over to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Muncie----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the period from 1948 to 1952, isn’t that right?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; 1950, 1950, and 1951 was back in the service at Green Cove Springs and then I came back and I was there for the rest of 1951, and I believe it was in 1952 when we moved to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All of the late forties you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a while in 1952 you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were aware of what information was being developed by the Communist Party in Muncie, at that time, weren’t you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period in the late forties and the early fifties when Senator McCarthy and other people in the Congress were very interested in Communist activities throughout the country, I take it you were paying attention to what information they were developing about Muncie, if any?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, for about a year and a half, 2 years directly, let’s see, that would have been latter part of 1948, 1949, and 1950, until I was called back in the service. I was working with Warner Gear and I wasn’t actually in contact with them so I didn’t know what they were doing at that time but I know nothing actually developed out of the list so I assume they knew who they were, and that I just felt that I had done what I should have done, and so if they wanted to talk to me they could have and I never brought it up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, has the House Un-American Activities Committee or any other committee of the Congress conducted an investigation into Communist activities in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to my knowledge; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period when the Congress was very interested in this, were you attentive to whether or not they were investigating Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I often wondered why nothing ever came out of what they was doing there in Muncie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering why then at that point you didn’t make known to somebody the fact that you had information which led you to believe that there was a Communist Party group in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I had already turned the list in and I felt I had already informed them that they were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. You see this is what I didn’t know until just recently, that Merv Collins never turned the list over to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Mr. Mullaney said there was no record of that list ever being turned in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now then, I will also tell you this now. At the time my wife and I was talking about it the other day, shortly after I turned this list in, we used to have--my wife and I lived out in the country, we had our first child at that time, and there would be somebody, sometimes there was one, sometimes there was two or three men in a car, used to park out in front of our house and they would sit out there sometimes as high as an hour to maybe 3 or 4 hours, and very seldom under an hour, and we had called, my wife mentioned this the other day when I told her that the list had never been turned in, and she says, “Well, do you reckon he could have been a member?” And I said I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Collins?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. It never occurred to me, her own uncle, and I said it never occurred to me. She says, “You know, we used to call him and tell him these fellows were following you home and sitting out in front at night and he used to say it was just a paperboy, not to worry about it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, who were the people who were following you home? I didn’t get that.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had no idea, I never recognized any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would this continue?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It went on, I would say, for a period of, I would say 5, maybe 6 months that this went on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this approximately?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was in 1947 or 1948, let’s see, the oldest boy was born, it was and he was born because we had the baby and he was just a baby at that time. He was born in June of 1947, so it would have been from June on up until about Christmastime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that they were following you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was quite obvious. When I left town the car would leave right behind me, follow me all the way out into the country, down the same roads and everything and when I pulled in the drive the same car would go on past the house, turn around and come back and then park.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close to your house would it park?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, right in front of it usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was across the street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Just, there was a barn lot across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A barn lot?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; just nothing but a field across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you ever get a look at these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; every time I would--I used to get quite provoked at them sitting out there and there would be several occasions when I would go out of the house and go toward the car and ask them what they were doing, but every time I started out the driveway they would leave. So, I actually never got a good look at any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think these people were following you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have no idea, but the only thing that I can figure is that they--I had been asked, I had been asked by Lawson Jaffe, I had been asked by the Pazols, and I don’t know, there were several different ones, Phil Jasser, all of them had asked me at one time if I had seen any papers lying up in this office or in this union hall when I went up there, and, of course, I denied that. I didn’t see anything when I went up there. All I did was went up and got the chair.

“Sam can tell you,” I said, “when I came down I didn’t have anything but the chair, that was all I could see, that was all I was sent up there for.”

Then Sam talked to me on two or three different times and asked me, he said, “If you did take the list I am not going to tell anybody, but did you actually take the list or see it up there?” And I said, “No,” I didn’t even tell him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they indicate that list was about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They didn’t. They would never tell me. All they said there were two or three sheets of paper, said, “Didn’t you see them laying there?” And I said, “No,” I never did see them. But they would never tell me what it was all about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it besides Sam Jaffe, was it Lawson Jaffe who asked you about the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson, Phil Jasser, Herb and Morton Pazol had asked me. So in other words, they all knew I had been up there that morning to get this chair, and that apparently they all draw their own conclusions that I was the one who had to pick up that list. And this went on, I know, for a long time after I had picked that list up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about that list which would indicate that they might have all been members of some other group that wasn’t a Communist group? For example, that they could all have been members of the same synagogue, it could have been a church affiliated group?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, there was nothing on the paper to indicate what it was about, or what they were members of. To my knowledge there wasn’t, unless it would have been on one of the other pages. Like, I say, I didn’t go through them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Sam Jaffe inquired about this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, Sam wanted to know, he said they are going to get a little unhappy with you because they think you have taken those papers from up there in the hall, and I said, “Well, Sam, I didn’t see them when I was up there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, don’t you think that--let me ask you this. Did Sam Jaffe indicate that he had anything to do with that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He was, I think, more or less trying to find out if I had the list and if I would give these papers back to him he would see they would get back to them and they would leave me alone. I think this was the only reason why Sam wanted the list or these papers, as they kept referring to them. They never referred to them as a list, but said papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other papers up there beside the list of names?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, you were going to say something.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Actually, I feel if I had had them as rough as some of them were getting about it and as nasty as they were getting about it, I would have given them back to Sam. But I had turned them over to Merv Collins and I couldn’t give them back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never told anybody about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because they were getting a little nasty about it, and Lawson Jaffe came to me and said. “If I find out you took those papers I am going to cut your blooming throat,” those were his exact words and they were getting to be quite nasty about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the people who were listed on that list, were they all in the jewelry business that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, they was in the clothing business, in the jewelry business and Seymour Jasson, Sam’s other son-in-law, was in show business of some kind in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Seymour was in show business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. He had, I would say, it was--anyway they knew an awful lot of entertainers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you say about him, can you describe Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he was roughly around 5′10″, 5′11″, and dark complexion, very handsome fellow, black wavy hair, curly hair. I guess you could call it, I believe it was halfway between curly and wavy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a son-in-law of Sam Jaffe who had red hair?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The only thing I can remember about Max Pritcher was he was short and fat but I don’t remember whether he had black hair or red hair. But it seems to me there was one that used to come up there with red hair but now who he was, I don’t know. It looked odd to me because I knew he was definitely Jewish, and he had red hair, and--but I can’t remember who he was or Rosalie or Rosalyn, I can’t honestly say I ever met her husband, in fact I don’t even remember her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two you remember are Marion and Charlotte?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you meet Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour used to come down, Seymour and Charlotte used to come down, quite often, oh, I would say in a period of once every couple or 3 months they would come down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you might have seen him a dozen times?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. At least a dozen times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the occasions that they came from Chicago to Muncie, did they ever bring any friends with them?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. There was, usually when they came down there was, anywhere from, Seymour and Charlotte, and then this Jack Rubenstein had come with them on three occasions that I know of.

Whether he had ever come any more than that I am not sure.

Then there was always--whether anybody else come with them or not I don’t know. Then, of course, there was this here blonde girl that this Jack Rubenstein, whether it was his wife or girl friend, who she was, I don’t know.

Now, those four used to be together all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of the others that came down with them. This Seymour and this Jack Rubenstein it was my impression they were very good friends. They were both in show business or some kind of business there pertaining to entertainment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there were other people who came down with Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, whether they actually came down with them or not I don’t know but I know usually at one time or another during the time they would all seem to be gathering up there in the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t remember the names of any of the other people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because I was never actually introduced to any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was introduced to Jack Rubenstein, the first time I was introduced to him, I can’t remember, I was working in the shop and they were in the office working, and Sam called me in there and introduced me, and somehow he asked me something about cards but I can’t remember how it was that it came up.

Anyway, an ordinary playing deck of cards, and this Jack Rubenstein was quite adept at playing cards, you could shuffle the deck and hand it to him and he could still give you almost any card he wanted.

There were other things they had done. He and this blonde girl worked together. He would take a piece of paper and write your names, different dates, when you were born, stuff like that, and fold it up in four or five squares and then I would give it to Jack, and he would hold it in his hands and then this other girl would tell me exactly what I put on the paper.

How they done it I don’t know. This was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack Rubenstein was in show business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he had told me--now this was in, I believe on his second time that he was down there, there was some talk about Sam sending me to Chicago to work with a man there, a Mr. Levinson. I believe the man’s name was, who was a diamond setter, and this was all that he done was diamond setting and Sam wanted me to go up and work with him for a few months to learn more about diamond setting.

Anyway, we were in the middle of the plans about the second time that this Jack Rubenstein came in there and when Jack came in, he acted very friendly and wanted to know how I was and this and that, and then we in the course of the conversation, why Sam said something about my coming to Chicago maybe and working for Mr. Levinson there, and Jack said, “Fine” he said, “when you come,” he said, “I want you to come around to my place, and anything you want is on the house.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating that he ran some sort of an entertainment place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. It was either a nightclub or tavern or something, I don’t know. I never actually knew that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I know Sam told me--he said, “well now,” he said “there you go; you would have to sit in the back room because you are not 21,” but he said “they have got peep holes and you can still see the show.”

I took it for granted it was a nightclub and apparently they had some kind of a show they put on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any--what do you remember most about this fellow whom you called Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The most I remember about him was he was a very nice looking fellow. He was very jolly, and he was what I would call a real character because he was always cutting up, laughing, always jolly, very happy-go-lucky more or less, so to speak.

And as I made the comment the other day, I made it, I think on several occasions, I thought he was nuts because he didn’t marry that blonde girl, because she was just about, they was two of a kind.

She was jolly, and happy-go-lucky, and I know, I was always under the impression that she was very much in love with Jack because she just absolutely idolized him. She would never get too far way from his side and never take her eyes off him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You refer to this man as Jack Rubenstein. How certain are you that his name was Jack?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Everybody referred to him as Jack. But now I will say this; there is one thing that I don’t understand and this is one reason why after this Jack Ruby shot Oswald, I didn’t connect him because I had never heard him referred to as Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How sure are you that this man you saw; his name was Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Being introduced to him on two or three occasions and it was always as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been Rosenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, it could not have been Rosenstein. The Rosenstein they talked about, like I said, I never met the man but I heard them talking about was in Cincinnati, Ohio, or Dayton, Ohio, one or the other and he was a very close associate to Lawson Jaffe, and it is my impression that Rosenstein was a lawyer because I know Lawson Jaffe is the one who talked about him mostly and apparently this--he took care of legal matters or something for Lawson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you believe was the first time that you ever saw the man you call Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time that I remember or that I met him, the time I was introduced to him and showed the card tricks and things was around, I believe it would have had to have been in 1943.

I went to work for Sam in 1942 and I had worked for him quite some time. Maybe he had been there before, I don’t know but I don’t remember him being there.

At least I had never been introduced to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of 1943?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It must have been in the summertime, it would have had to have been in the summertime, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it then?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. By the way they were dressed because I remember when they first introduced me he looked so out of place because he had a very nice looking suit. We had--he had one of the loudest sports shirts I had ever seen in my life and I remember when he took his coat off it was a short-sleeved shirt and if I remember correctly it was a real bright red, and I know it was a very loud sport shirt and it just looked completely out of place with the suit he had on.

And that is why, was the only reason why I connect it with being in the summertime. I don’t recall them having topcoats or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is what makes you remember this fellow; his clothing, his card tricks, his girl friend, or what?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I think just his; like I said he was a real character, and he was always very, very friendly. Offered to take me out to lunch whenever he was there, and in fact I did go to lunch with him one time, in fact, we went, now this is what Max Pritcher was doing, Max had the restaurant on Main Street, and I was just going out to lunch on the second time that Jack was there, and we had been up there talking and this is the time we was talking that, about me going to Chicago, and Jack said, “Fine,” he said, “you can come up to my place, for an evening, you can come up there and really have a good time.”

And I was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this before you went into the service or after?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was before I went into the service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

So, this was either in the summer of 1943 or later?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Summer of 1943, the first time I was introduced to him and when we went out to lunch it was early in 1944 and it was wintertime at that time because I know we walked from Jaffe’s to the restaurant. And we had to put on our topcoats because it was about two or three blocks away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to try to focus a little bit on the time here. What possibility is there that it could have been before the summer of 1943. Could it have been in the summer of 1942 that you saw him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I don’t believe so, because, for the simple reason I say this is because the second time I remember when I went out to dinner with him it was in the wintertime and I know it hadn’t been too long that he had been there because if it had been too long I wouldn’t have remembered him but I did remember him when he came in, so I don’t believe it could have been over 6 or 7 months, and I, thinking back, it just doesn’t seem like it would have been too long. In fact, I would say it more likely would have been late summer in 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the first time you talked with the FBI about this it was your recollection that it was in the spring of 1943. Do you recall that? At least this is what they have reported.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. As I told them, I can’t remember, at the time I called them, I just couldn’t remember. I couldn’t go back 18 years ago or 20 years ago and actually put my finger on any definite time or place, and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think your recollection now as a result of this conversation we have been having is better than it was----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think so. Not only that but I have had a lot of time to think about this, and I am just almost certain, I mean in our conversation here that it must have been in the summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of which year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were going to tell me, I think when I interrupted you, that the second time that you met him you and he went to a restaurant?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. Now the second time--I don’t know if this blonde girl was with him the second time or not, it seems to me she was, but she wasn’t with him when him and Seymour came up the shop or Charlotte. Yes, Charlotte was with him or came in later. Anyway----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you now; are you sure on this second occasion that he came to Muncie with Charlotte and Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he did come with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they had been talking about the trip and they had had some trouble or something, I can’t remember what it was, anyway they was talking about what had happened, and then also they was talking about when they was going to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they going, someplace else from Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was going back to Chicago and how long they were intending to stay; I don’t know. It seems to me I would say it was 3 or 4 days that I seen them around there. But anyway, Jack Rubenstein and I went on to the restaurant, and we had lunch over there, and Jack paid for everything, and then just as we was leaving, why then Charlotte and Seymour came in, and then I went back to the shop and where Jack went I don’t know. He went someplace else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to come to the shop without Seymour and Charlotte?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He just walked in. To my opinion, he knew Sam quite well, I mean apparently they had been, had known each other for quite some time. So there was talk; I had heard them talking about different things that had happened before, and wanted to know how each other were and were referring to different ones, different members that they knew, or different members of each family that they knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in Jack Rubenstein’s conversation that indicated to you that he might have been in the jewelry business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication that he may have been in any business outside of show business or running a bar?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. None that I know of. At least not around me there was never anything said, because to me he was always talking about his establishment, that is what he called it, his establishment, and said he had two of the prettiest girls working for him that could be found in Illinois or Indiana, and he was quite proud of them, and I think in my opinion also he was quite a woman’s man. I don’t know, just the way he talked about women is where I suppose I draw that conclusion. And he was something of, like I say, of a real dandy himself. I mean he was always very well dressed, always very neat, but, like I say, that second time was the time, in fact, I wasn’t even sure I wanted to go down the street with him with that bright red shirt; no, that was the first time, with that bright red shirt. It really amazed me that a man could be so well dressed and still have on such a gaudy shirt and I think, this is my first recollection of him when I met him, because anyway he acted--cutting up all the time and joking, and I more or less thought to myself, what kind of a nut is this guy. But now the first time he dressed quite gaudy, the second time he was very well dressed, and the last time I saw him which was in, it was either in 1946 or 1947, I don’t recall which, there was after I came back from the service, him and Seymour and Charlotte came back up there, and this time the blonde wasn’t with him, I don’t think, at least I don’t recall seeing her now, and he was very cool. He wasn’t the same Jack Rubenstein that I had known before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have none. I mean he was decent but he wasn’t just his jocular self, always joking and cutting up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When approximately was this when you saw him, 1946 or 1947?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was 1946 or 1947. It was after I had came back from the service and had gone to work for Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get out of the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. In 1946.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. June 21 when I was discharged. I was off about 2 weeks and went back to work for Sam. Now one thing that I hadn’t remembered or hadn’t said anything to the boys there in Medford was there was, and I didn’t remember it until the other day when they brought it up, actually, I don’t place any connection on it, he called me and asked me if there was ever any other employees of Sam’s. Before I went in the service I was the only employee. When I came back from the service, Sam had expanded, he had opened up, I guess I should put this on here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he had opened up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he open up something behind you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. A jewelry store; he was doing retail jewelry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this new store he opened up adjacent, directly connected with it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. His jewelry store came out here, this part was exactly the same.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw on Exhibit No. 1 what he opened up in 1946 or 1947 and then indicate by some sort of language on the diagram that this was a new addition and the date that it was opened?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The date it was opened I don’t know, but when I returned in 1946 he had it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you say new addition by time you returned from service.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Do you want me to put retail jewelry store?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you do that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was wholesale before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now go ahead with what you were going to say about that.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service he had this retail jewelry store and there was a lady working for him by the name of Marie Shaw. She took care of the books for him and done some selling, I believe. Sam, in the meantime, had taken another boy in, was teaching him jewelry work, and his name was Bill Miller.

Now Bill didn’t stay there very long, approximately, I think, if I remember correctly, I think Bill was only there 4 or 5 months, and then he quit, and I suppose this is one reason, I couldn’t even remember the man’s name the other day when Mr. Mullaney called me, I couldn’t remember the man’s last name. I remember it was Bill. But I had to--in fact, Mr. Mullaney called my wife and she told him what his name was, Bill Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. So I didn’t place any connection on him and that was the only other employee that I knew of Sam having.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was either Shaw or Miller working there at the time you found this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Mary Shaw was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that you had found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that Sam Jaffe was trying to get the list from you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall if Miss Shaw was ever around when they had questioned me at all; I can’t remember she was ever around at anytime. She could have possibly been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed there when Jack--did Jack Rubenstein ever visit the store when she was there?