Chapter XXX: Front Matter (30)

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know if it is going to cause any more trouble than it already has. I don’t see how it could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me put it this way. Would you prefer not to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Not necessarily.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, why don’t you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mrs. TICE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name, please?

Mrs. TICE. Wilma May Tice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Tice?

Mrs. TICE. 8406 Lakemont Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. TICE. Dallas 9, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mrs. Tice?

Mrs. TICE. March 3, 1925.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are married?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been married?

Mrs. TICE. December 6, 1948. Fifteen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any children?

Mrs. TICE. We have three adopted children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mrs. TICE. No; I am not employed and haven’t been since I worked for the juvenile department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. When we adopted our last two children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you adopt them through the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. We did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is that that you last worked for them?

Mrs. TICE. I guess 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are your children?

Mrs. TICE. The youngest one is 6, will be 7 in August. The next one is 8, was 8 June 28. And the little boy is 9, and will be 10 November 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What job did you have with the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. I was the manager of the foster home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were the manager of the foster home?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that mean?

Mrs. TICE. When the police or the sheriff or anybody picks up the little children that have been abandoned, or if there has been trouble or anything, well, the police bring them to me and bring me a police sheet on it, and in return I call the juvenile department, and then they know how to appoint what social worker that should be appointed to the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You took care of the children until a home was found for them?

Mrs. TICE. No; I was the manager. I took care of the children until they were assigned to a worker, or if I would get too many children, the supervisor would come out and we had foster homes that would take the children until their hearing or what-have-you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the children would actually live in your home?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?

Mrs. TICE. For a year or a little over. Maybe a year, or going on 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?

Mrs. TICE. No; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow the Ruby trial in the newspapers?

Mrs. TICE. I saw some of the news, yes; I did, but then I had a wreck January 23, and January 23 I was pretty sick until April 21. I mean, I had trouble with vision and was going to the doctor every day, and was in bed practically all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of injury did you sustain in the accident?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I had something wrong with the optical nerves or pinched nerves in my neck from a whiplash, and pulled muscles in my shoulder, and something, I don’t know what he said, this vertebra was cramped against the other vertebra, and had a nerve pinched in between it or under.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an automobile accident?

Mrs. TICE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you rendered unconscious in the accident?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I guess I was slightly in shock. I am not sure. I mean, well, I was pretty frightened. I mean I wouldn’t let the officer take me to the doctor. I wanted to wait until my husband got home to take me to the doctor, because my husband can be there in 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you hospitalized?

Mrs. TICE. No; I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think about the outcome of the Ruby trial?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know what to think about it. I really don’t know what to think about it. I mean, as far as the trial is concerned, I don’t understand it at all. I mean, there is just a lot of it I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any feeling about whether Jack was treated fairly or not?

Mrs. TICE. That part I couldn’t say. I don’t know whether he was treated fairly or not. I just wouldn’t even know if he was treated fairly, because I wasn’t up there. I mean, I can’t say. I felt like, I guess what you really want to know is how in the beginning I talked with Eva?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s right.

Mrs. TICE. Well, I called Eva. It was no more than a sympathy call. And when I called her I didn’t get her on the phone. I got Eileen on the phone. And I felt sorry for them because they had been so deserted for something that their brother had done. They had been rejected by everybody, and I felt sorry for them. I mean just like I try to teach my children, right is right and wrong is wrong, and I try to abide by the same thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You called for the purpose of cheering her up, was that it, in some way?

Mrs. TICE. Yes. I called her after the verdict. It was after the verdict that I called her to give her my sympathy. That is why. And then I talked with Eileen. And instead, she said Eva was rather upset. Then in talking with Eileen, I think she called or I don’t know, I talked again--I don’t know if Eva called me, or Eileen called me, but something was mentioned about their brother being out at the hospital, and at the time I said to her it was really a shock to me to see--I mean I was in the kitchen when I heard the news, and the children said when they were transferring him, Ruby did this. And she said they were so shocked and all tore up, and I said yes, it was quite a shock to me because seeing him just 2 days later out at the hospital wanting to give Governor Connally a kidney, that he could go down and try to save one life, and go take another life, it just didn’t make sense. And she said, “Oh, he is sick, he is just sick.” And said, “He has been acting just peculiar ever since this thing happened.” And she told me then that another time, well, Eileen asked if she could come and talk to me, if she could come out to the house. So she and Eva came out, and two newspaper reporters came along with me. Art Sinclair and this other one, I don’t know what his name was. Anyway, they were talking to me about Ruby being out to the hospital, and that is just about all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, did you know that Jack himself has denied very vehemently he was out at the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I know he denied that, and I hated to say that I saw him out there, and I told Eva. And Eva told me, “Well, I asked Jack and Jack said no, he wasn’t out there.” And I said, “Well, anybody can make a mistake. Anybody could have made a mistake.” She said, “Yes, because there are many Jacks. A man called Jack,”--and if it wasn’t him it was his twin brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you could have been mistaken about the man you saw?

Mrs. TICE. It could have been somebody else that looked just like Jack, named Jack; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had been really sure of it that you saw him out there, wouldn’t you have reported it to the FBI or the police in late November or early December?

Mrs. TICE. Now this is where my husband’s part comes in. He doesn’t like for me to go out of that house unless he is with me. He goes down to the farm every weekend, and I was at home alone. My children were in school and everybody was gone. I mean, not only me, but everybody in Dallas was looking and listening. And I decided that I would jump in the car and run over there too. It is only 15 minutes from my house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean when you went to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. When I went to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your husband object to the fact that you had gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has this disturbed you, his objection to that?

Mrs. TICE. Yes: it disturbs me all the time, because he doesn’t want me to go out of the house while he is gone, because he says my place is in the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were really sure that the man you saw out there was Jack Ruby, wouldn’t you have reported it to the police or the FBI within a few days, or called them on the telephone, or something like that and told them about it very shortly after Jack shot Oswald?

Mrs. TICE. No; because I thought they knew everything. I didn’t know that Eva and them didn’t know he went out there, or I wouldn’t have said that to her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You assumed that when you said that, that they knew?

Mrs. TICE. That they knew he was out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That they thought he was out there?

Mrs. TICE. I assumed they knew he was out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you read the article that one of the newspaper reporters wrote who also said he saw Jack Ruby out at the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. TICE. No, sir: I didn’t read that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not familiar with that?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason you are telling us that you didn’t call the FBI earlier is that you assumed that they knew that he was out at Parkland, that he had been at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. I assumed that they knew everywhere he had been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you expect that they would have known that unless somebody told them about it?

Mrs. TICE. Well, they are talking to the news all the time, and Eva said they tracked him down from here to there and said that they had asked her all about it and everything. And she wanted to know what time I saw him out there. I said, “I don’t know what time it was, but I know that I was out at the hospital by 1 o’clock, and I know that I was back at my house at 3 o’clock, because my children get home from school at 10 after 3, and when they come home I am home.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you stood out there before you saw this man that you thought was Jack Ruby?

Mrs. TICE. Well, there was some lady and some little child with some group of people standing there and I asked them what they were doing now and she said, “Well, they haven’t said anything.” And she said she can’t hear anything. This is when I saw the one that at that time I didn’t know was anybody like Jack Ruby, and then this man that came up to him and slapped him on the shoulder and started talking to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this man that you think was Jack Ruby, how long did he stand out there next to you?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing about 3 feet from them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he standing in relation to you. Was he in front of you or behind you, or off to the side, or where was he?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing about like this, and they were standing there, but I was being nosey and listening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, this man was off to the side 4 or 5 feet distant from you, the distance from you to me?

Mrs. TICE. This man that I say was Jack Ruby was about 3 feet from me, I guess, about as far as you are from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You could only see the side of his face, I take it?

Mrs. TICE. Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. TICE. No; I only saw--I could only see the side of this other man’s face that walked up to him. Jack was standing right here, see, this man that is called Jack. He was standing here like this, and I am standing here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will have to indicate.

Mrs. TICE. He turned around when this man walked up here and hit him on the shoulder and said, “How are you doing, Jack?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby was ahead of you and initially had his back to you, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. No; he wasn’t up ahead of me. He was more or less to the side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked over, when did you first notice him, when the man said hello to Jack?

Mrs. TICE. When I first noticed him was when this man walked up to him, because I thought this was a detective or something, because he had a suitcase.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he standing in a crowd of people?

Mrs. TICE. Well, there was a, like I said, this lady that I turned around and asked this, and people were coming and going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far were you from the main entrance of Parkland Hospital? Which entrance of the hospital were you near?

Mrs. TICE. Down where you come off of Harry Hines. You come off here, and then there is a paved parking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you draw a picture for us. Why don’t you take this yellow sheet of paper and why don’t you draw Harry Hines Boulevard?

Mrs. TICE. OK; this is Harry Hines Boulevard, and right in here, this is where the gate thing goes along. You pay to go in here and park. I guess it’s got gate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, we are trying, the reporter is trying to take your words down and they don’t mean very much if you just talk about this and that. I suggest that you draw on this sheet of paper, draw the hospital and draw Harry Hines Boulevard, and then draw some more lines to indicate where you were standing. Can you do that?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know too much how the hospital looks over there. As I came down this way, that is what I am trying to tell you--this is Harry Hines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have drawn a line that you call Harry Hines Boulevard.

Mrs. TICE. OK; then you go in here, and there is a pay-parking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. The hospital is right here. Right down here is the emergency entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the main entrance, do you know that?

Mrs. TICE. I guess that was the main entrance up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.

Mrs. TICE. But this is way I came.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a road that comes off Harry Hines Boulevard? What direction is that from the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. There is a little hill that goes down here, and just before you go through this emergency place, I guess that is an emergency place, there is a lawn here, and this is where this bar is for the grass. But there is another parking lot behind this pay thing, I guess. I thought it was a pay thing, something left out of here, and I pulled in this other one and parked in the second or third space.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in a parking lot that was between the emergency entrance to the hospital and Harry Hines Boulevard, is that right? You pulled into a parking lot that was between Harry Hines Boulevard and the emergency entrance of the hospital, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know how many places there is to park there, but this first place was the one I got in, and I didn’t pay to get in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went into a free parking space?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you parked your car?

Mrs. TICE. I parked my car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you walk to?

Mrs. TICE. Then I came back out here and I walked down here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you were standing in the oval in front of the emergency entrance, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing right here by this fence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The metal fence that separates the----

Mrs. TICE. This right here is where the police cars park and stuff. No; that is over to the other side because that goes all the way around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to explain it in words, because the lady can’t take this down. She can’t understand what we are talking about.

Mrs. TICE. Well, all right. Right down here is this circle where you go down into the emergency entrance, and this little bar here, it goes across here where this grass is, and where I was standing was right here on this grass, right here [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you mark an X where you were standing?

Mrs. TICE. This is me. And these other people were here, and this is where Jack was standing, about 2 foot on this side of this fence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you facing toward the emergency entrance, or which direction were you facing?

Mrs. TICE. We were looking down there to see what was happening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack actually was a little bit in front of you?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an R where Ruby was?

(Mrs. Tice marks.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, a man walked up to him and tapped him on the shoulder?

Mrs. TICE. The man came right down this way, over this way and slapped him on the shoulder and asked him how he was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that point Jack turned around?

Mrs. TICE. At that point Jack turned around and started talking to him. At the time, he was facing right toward me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the other man? Was he standing between you and Jack?

Mrs. TICE. No; the other man was standing right here, and Jack was standing here, because he turned around to see who slapped him on the shoulder.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this with an R for Ruby, and I am going to put W for Wilma, and I am going to leave the M you put there for the other man.

Mrs. TICE. OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you thought about this incident?

Mrs. TICE. I didn’t think about it any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the next time you thought about it, of course, was whenever the children said that was when Oswald got shot?

Mrs. TICE. That is the next time I thought about it. I mean, other than just what I hear on the news, and I got tired of hearing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell your husband?

Mrs. TICE. That I went down there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell anybody else that you had been there and seen that man, seen Jack Ruby?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I talked to Eva about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any of your friends about it?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t think so; no. I don’t think I did, because I wouldn’t want my husband to get hold of me being out there. I guess I made mention to somebody about him wanting to give somebody a kidney, him wanting to give Governor Connally, one day, and then going up and killing somebody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who you told that to?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you would like to tell us about this?

Mrs. TICE. Well, except whenever I turned, well, this Ruby went on down this way, and this man here, when this man walked away, and this one here went on down toward this curb here, then I turned around and I looked at my watch and I left, because my children were coming home from school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left shortly after you saw this man, this Ruby man?

Mrs. TICE. I was home at 3 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time elapsed between the time you saw Ruby and when you left the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know, but it takes me approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as that man left, Ruby, did you go home?

Mrs. TICE. I just moseyed. I didn’t take off at a running hop or anything, but I kept looking and I didn’t see nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait as long as an hour after you saw Ruby before you left?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As long as a half-hour?

Mrs. TICE. No; whenever I started to get out, there was cars coming in there, and I guess it probably took me 5 minutes to get out of that parking lot, by the time I walked back up to here and got back in the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of when you got home?

Mrs. TICE. Well, the children got home from school at 3 o’clock or 2:45. They get out 10 minutes till 3. I was home at 3 o’clock; I was home when the children got there. Well, it may have been 5 or 10 minutes after 3, because I was there before the children came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the children arrived?

Mrs. TICE. I just got there, but I was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram which you have drawn here--I am going to put this emergency entrance up where you have indicated it was, and I am going to mark this “Wilma Tice Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1”.

Mrs. TICE. Well, now, you know Eva told me she says, “Well, but Wilma, you could be mistaken, because you know people look different on television than they do in person.” I said, “Yes, I realize that is true.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you might be mistaken, or don’t you?

Mrs. TICE. No; I said I thought it was either him or his twin brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still feel that way?

Mrs. TICE. I still feel that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have only seen him on television?

Mrs. TICE. That’s right, and that time out there is the only time I have ever seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about pictures in the newspaper, do they look the same as what you remember the man looked like at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. They didn’t look as much like him as the one that Eva or Eileen brought to the house and showed to me. I mean, looked more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Tice, I only ask you if you will sign this exhibit with your signature.

(Mrs. Tice signs.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask one other question. That is, there was a newspaper report that you received a threat of some sort before you came here. Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. TICE. Do I know anything about it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you receive a threat before coming here?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I don’t know if it was a threat or I don’t know now--I don’t know what you are talking about. Are you talking about when I was barricaded in the house?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don’t know about that. I was just informed by somebody here in this U.S. attorney’s office that one of the daily newspapers here had carried an article that you had been threatened. Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. TICE. They said that I had been threatened, but what the paper said is not what--I got a telephone call, and some man told me on the telephone that it would pay me to keep my mouth shut.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize the voice on the telephone?

Mrs. TICE. I never heard that voice before in my life, that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you got that telephone call, did your husband know that you were supposed to come to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; he knew I got this letter Sunday. He was coming home with the children. He went down to pick up the children at Sunday School and brought them home and was just coming in whenever I signed for the letter, and the postman handed me the letter when he walked up to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive the telephone call?

Mrs. TICE. Well, now, I think it was Monday or Tuesday; but I have been so confused because I was up all day and all that night and the next day, and some of the FBI and some of the police said it was Wednesday, but I believe it was Monday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your husband, when you got that letter from the President’s Commission, ask you why you were supposed to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell him?

Mrs. TICE. No; he accused me of having worked for Jack Ruby at one time. He says, “I know you have known him before. You probably worked for him before you and I were married.” And he is so unreasonable, and he is just--my husband is kind of jealous, and you can’t hardly talk to him. So I just figured, well, I wouldn’t say anything to him, because he just goes into a rage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t have any other questions of you and I appreciate your coming here. I don’t know whether you have anything more that you would want to add. I think you probably told us everything there is to tell us.

Mrs. TICE. Well, that is all I know. And as far as the phone calls, the rest of them didn’t say anything. They just hung up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get more than one phone call?

Mrs. TICE. Yes, sir; I got several phone calls that were just--whenever I wouldn’t answer the phone any more, and our little niece had been there, and she is 14 and I would tell her to answer the telephone, and she answered the telephone, and they would hang up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to thank you again very much for coming. I hope we haven’t inconvenienced you any further.

TESTIMONY OF WANDA YVONNE HELMICK

The testimony of Wanda Yvonne Helmick was taken at 4 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our practice to have a few preliminaries here in which I explain to you what the Commission is all about, and what we are going to do. Then we will administer the oath and I will talk to you.

This President’s Commission, as you probably know, was set up in November 1963, as a result of an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and under these two official acts, we have been directed to investigate and to evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today because I understand you have some information that might pertain to Jack Ruby.

Now, under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been designated to take your testimony, and I might tell you that the rules do provide that before you are asked to testify, you shall receive 3 days’ notice in writing in advance before you come here.

I will ask you right now if you received a letter from us and when you did receive it.

Mrs. HELMICK. I received it yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we haven’t complied. Well, let me ask you if you are willing to go ahead and give us your testimony without having had the 3 days’ written notice?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me before I ask you questions?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HELMICK. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your name, please?

Mrs. HELMICK. Wanda Yvonne Helmick, or Wanda Sweat Helmick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mrs. HELMICK. 902 Bagley, Apartment 3.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located in Dallas?

Mrs. HELMICK. In Arcadia Park in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it Mrs. or Miss?

Mrs. HELMICK. Mrs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mrs. Helmick?

Mrs. HELMICK. March 16, 1945.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working for a man named Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in November of 1963?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin to work for Mr. Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it was in November that I started to work for him. I don’t remember the exact day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him altogether?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was employed with him for 3 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave his employment?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?

Mrs. HELMICK. Carhop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What hours did you work?

Mrs. HELMICK. I worked from 10 till 6, I think, or from 10 to 5.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 10 in the morning till 5 at night?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this every day of the week?

Mrs. HELMICK. I had one day off. I don’t remember which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, did you always work those hours or did you ever work in the evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. I always worked those hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have talked to the FBI and have indicated that you overheard a telephone conversation that you believed took place between Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you heard that telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was the night before Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The night before?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of day or night would that have been?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, I believe it was around 8 or 9 o’clock. I am not for sure what time it was. My husband, he wasn’t supposed to pick me up. Another girl was supposed to pick up and take me over to her house so he would pick me up, but she didn’t show up, and he came after me about 9 o’clock, I guess it was. Rather late at night, I know that much. And this conversation took place after dark. I don’t know what time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working at that time?

Mrs. HELMICK. No; I was off of work. I had been off work about 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you sitting at the time you heard this telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. In the front booth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the Bull Pen Drive-In?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to take a pencil here and a piece of paper and draw us a diagram of the inside of that Bull Pen Drive-In and show us on the diagram where you were seated and where the telephone was and so forth.

Mrs. HELMICK (drawing). This is where the booth was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, what have you drawn on there?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is where the telephone is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the room? Would you draw the outline of the whole room first? Where are the walls of the room?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is the walls and then there is a little something that blocks between two rooms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A partition of some sort?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; a partition. And the booths are sitting next to it like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door to this room?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. There is a door coming into the whole thing from the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door? Do you want to mark the door in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is the door. This opens into, and it opens onto the place where you pay as you go out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The counter? Cashier? Where is the cashier?

Mrs. HELMICK. The cashier stands in behind this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write cashier in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. (Writes).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now up in the upper left-hand corner of this diagram you have drawn a rectangle and you have written the words telephone and cashier. It is rectangular, some sort of enclosed area?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you get back into that enclosed area?

Mrs. HELMICK. There is a little open door like thing. It doesn’t have a door in front of it. It is just an opening that you can walk behind the counter where all the trays sit for the carhops and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? Can you mark it on the diagram?

Mrs. HELMICK. (Marks).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the telephone that you have marked on there, which is behind the enclosed area, is that a public telephone, or a pay telephone?

Mrs. HELMICK. It is a pay telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other telephones in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. No; there is not any other telephones there. I suppose that this booth is about anywhere from 3 to 6 feet away from the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were seated in the booth?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was seated sitting in the first seat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark yourself there? Put an “X” there where you were seated.

Mrs. HELMICK. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody sitting there with you?

Mrs. HELMICK. There was people sitting there. Rose and a man I can’t remember who was sitting beside me, and I believe Toyo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, what is Rose’s last name?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work at the drive-in?

Mrs. HELMICK. She has been working there for about 7 years before I came.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she still working there to your knowledge?

Mrs. HELMICK. The last time I was there, which was about 6 months ago, she was still there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where she lives?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was somebody that you called Toyo?

Mrs. HELMICK. She was a Japanese woman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she still working there?

Mrs. HELMICK. To my knowledge, she is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that her first name or her last name?

Mrs. HELMICK. That was her first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what her last name was?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t have no idea. It was an American name. I know where she lives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it is 10th Street. Let’s see, it’s behind Taylor Super Market in Grand Prairie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Grand Prairie?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the cashier present at that time?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the cashier?

Mrs. HELMICK. She was Rose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what happened? Will you tell us what happened?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, we were sitting there gossiping about something, I don’t remember what, but we was teasing or aggravating Johnnie--well, Paul you call him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ralph Paul sitting there at the booth with you?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, he was behind the counter, and Rose got up and went back there to do something, and she started talking to him, and the telephone rang, and she said, “It is for you. It is Jack.”

So he took the phone and he had been talking quite a while, and he said something. He either said, “Are you crazy? A gun?” or something like that, or he said something about a gun.

Then he said, “Are you crazy?” But he did say something about a gun, and he asked him if he was crazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he talk on this telephone call?

Mrs. HELMICK. He just talked for about 5 minutes, I guess. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything else that was said in the telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. He said something about either he had a date with Tammi or Jack had a date with Tammi, and Jack wanted to talk to Ralph, and that is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you heard that conversation, did you talk with any of the other employees about that?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if any of the other people who were seated in that booth also heard that conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. They were sitting close enough to hear it, and there wasn’t anything else being said at the time, because after Rose got up and went over to talk to Johnny, we didn’t talk very much, and it was real quiet after she left. Nobody was saying anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ralph do after receiving that telephone call?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, it wasn’t very long, I guess 15 or 20 minutes until he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he left?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. He told Rose, but he didn’t tell us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him tell Rose? Did you see him talking to Rose?

Mrs. HELMICK. He said, “I will see you tomorrow.” That is all I heard. He said that in sort of a loud voice, but other than that, he was talking sort of low.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you talked with Ralph that evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, I hadn’t really talked to Ralph that evening. He just told me, well, that morning he told me where everything was, and other than that, I didn’t talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you said you had been sitting at the booth talking to him.

Mrs. HELMICK. Rose and Bonnie and Toyo and this man, he is a tall man, I don’t remember his name, but they were all teasing him, and I didn’t know him that well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you sitting there or listening to the conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was listening to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Ralph that indicated that he was ill or wasn’t feeling well?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. There was nothing said that made him sound ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work at the Bull Pen Drive-In after this telephone call on Saturday night?

Mrs. HELMICK. I worked until about a week after Thanksgiving.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any conversation around the Bull Pen which would indicate that anybody had any advance information that Jack might do what he did?

Mrs. HELMICK. Now the next day after we had heard it on the radio, he was popping off about this telephone call that he had that night, and he told us that he talked to Jack and that they had talked about a gun, and that he had it in a dresser drawer or something like that, and that he didn’t tell what he was going to do with it.

I don’t even know that he told Ralph what he was going to do with it.

I don’t even know that he told Ralph what he was going to do with it. [Repeating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to “he had it in the drawer,” you mean Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes. But he was telling us again what I had overheard over the telephone about the gun and about out with one or the other.

And he said that he had told Jack that he was either crazy, or something like that, that he didn’t know what he was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was present during this conversation on Sunday?

Mrs. HELMICK. Everybody that worked for him was gathered around there on the other side of this object that I have drawn where the cashier stands. We were all standing around in a huddle, and John was standing on one side of the counter, and we were all on the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to Johnny, do you mean Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you name the other employees who were there?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was Rose. I don’t know their last names. It was Rose and Bonnie, and a boy named Joe and this tall man, and I don’t remember his name, and Curly. This is an old man that works there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all those people still employed there?

Mrs. HELMICK. As far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave your job there?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was sick for a week, and my baby was sick for a week, and whenever I got sick, I was off for about a week and 3 days, I guess, and whenever I went back after my job, he told me I couldn’t have it, that he had hired someone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a fight with Ralph?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I hadn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ralph Paul before then?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get your job there?

Mrs. HELMICK. He called me on the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to get your name?

Mrs. HELMICK. I went down there after I quit another job at Pal’s Drive-In in Arlington, I went down there and asked about a job, and he called me about 3 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he made any advances toward you?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had never had anything but a business relationship with him?

Mrs. HELMICK. That is all. I must have not got too well acquainted with him. I didn’t talk to him because I didn’t understand him. He didn’t talk like you. He was Jew or something and I couldn’t understand him, so I just didn’t talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel any hostility toward him?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I felt he had it toward me. He made me feel that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to get that impression?

Mrs. HELMICK. The first day I started working for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was the conversation on Sunday that you overheard?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was before Oswald died. It was about 20 minutes, I guess, after he was shot, because everybody else already knew it, and they was calling Ralph and telling him about it.

As soon as he found out about it, he called Tammi on the telephone, and Tammi came down and they left together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication from Tammi that she had seen Jack the night before?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t remember. I can’t remember if Ralph had said that “I saw Tammi the day before”, or not, but he told us that, I believe he told us that he saw Jack that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that your recollection is that on Sunday he told you that he had seen Jack on Saturday night?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe he did. I don’t remember. It’s been too long ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who have you told this story to besides the FBI and people here in this room?

Mrs. HELMICK. I told it to my husband the day that it happened. He was there. As soon as I got the gossip I went and told him. That is all it was to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell anybody else that you recall?

Mrs. HELMICK. I told my whole family about the telephone call and about what happened over there, and I guess everyone knew it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends?

Mrs. HELMICK. If we got to talking about the subject, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular girl friends that you might have told it to?

Mrs. HELMICK. Girl friend?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or boy friends?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was talking to Joyce Bradley. I was talking to her yesterday on the telephone and told her about the letter that you all had sent me, and told her what I just told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean shortly after this happened.

Mrs. HELMICK. Oh, well, my family, and I guess, well, I wrote to Don’s relatives in Baltimore, Md., right after it happened and I told them I worked for him, and told them what was going on down here on TV and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell them about this conversation that you overheard?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of that relative?

Mrs. HELMICK. Let’s see, Rosemary Helmick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. HELMICK. In Baltimore, Md.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have her address?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t have it now, but at the time I wrote her, it was 4116 Dartford.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has she moved since then?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI?

Mrs. HELMICK. Twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time, did they ask you these questions that I have just been asking you about who else you told?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes, but I don’t think I told them about me writing the letter, or I don’t remember what I told them. I mean I have been so nervous and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why didn’t you report this to the police or to the Federal authorities shortly after you heard about it?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t think it was anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you certainly must have thought it was something. You told your husband.

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I didn’t tell him. I thought it was something, I just thought it was gossip, so I gossiped. They went down and talked to the police the day that Jack Ruby got arrested, so I didn’t think it was anything.

I thought surely that they would tell them, so what was the use of me telling them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you knew that now when you followed the Ruby trial, you knew that none of this came out in the Ruby trial?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t follow the Ruby trial. My TV has been broke. Well, it is not really broke but the antenna is messed up on it, and I haven’t had a good TV antenna in 2 or 3 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in the newspapers, didn’t you follow the newspapers?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I don’t take a newspaper. But Ralph Paul wasn’t brought out in any of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. HELMICK. I just know that he wasn’t because I never heard his name mentioned by anybody else. I mean, I got the gossip. But right after the trial, I guess I don’t know when the trial was, but the FBI soon found me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They didn’t find you until sometime in June, did they?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know, but these people that I worked for, they was trying to keep everything so much of a secret, and I didn’t see anything wrong with what they had said. I mean, they was trying to keep Ralph Paul hid sort of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts were they making to hide it, as you say?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, whenever the newspaper would call on the telephone, they would say that he doesn’t own this place any more, or he isn’t here any more. Even if he was there, they would say he wasn’t there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the same day that Oswald was shot, or was that later on?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it was that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a fellow by the name of Jackson that works there?

Mrs. HELMICK. Jackson, I believe that was that tall fellow’s name that I mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the fellow that Ralph Paul lived with?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. I didn’t know he lived with anyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with Tammi?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t know he lived with anyone at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in that--how many waitresses did he have? Carhops and so forth?

Mrs. HELMICK. Carhops, there was me and Toyo, and 4 waitresses--this is during the daytime?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. HELMICK. There was Bonnie and Rose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have in the evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe his name was Joe, and his wife was working nights. She had just started right after I started to work there. I don’t remember if there was anybody else working there as a waitress, but there was a girl named Joe, a tall blond-headed girl, and a girl had just gotten out of the hospital and was coming back to work about three or four nights after I was working there. I can’t remember her name, but we all chipped in to buy her something, some kind of gift. It was a nightgown. And she started to work there again after I did, but I don’t remember her name. But I would recognize all them people if I saw them again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you thought of anything else that might be helpful to us in this regard?

Mrs. HELMICK. Now I may not know anything that would help you, but surely I am not the only one that heard this. I know that I am not, and Rose and everybody that was standing around there at that counter hearing Ralph talk, they all know what I have just said. But whether they heard the conversation on the telephone that night, if they did, I don’t know. They wouldn’t tell me but I didn’t ask any of them. But they never did say. Them people were quiet. They kept everything to theirselves. The reason I didn’t call anybody, I was afraid to get involved, really. And I didn’t know that I could be of help to anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anybody suggested to you that you shouldn’t get involved?

Mrs. HELMICK. No one ever suggested anything; because I didn’t believe that it was--I mean I figured that they would find it out sooner or later, and I didn’t figure that it was anything that anybody was hiding. I mean, I wasn’t hiding it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what significance that telephone conversation has?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that it has any bearing on the case at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you remember it then?

Mrs. HELMICK. Because of the gun, and after Oswald had been shot the next day, I knew that it was bound to have something to do with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think it has to do with it?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. My own opinion has nothing to do with this, I don’t think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think the conversation about the gun didn’t have anything to do with the shooting of Oswald? Is that what you are saying?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was the same gun that they were talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. HELMICK. Because Ralph told us the next day that it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that has to do with the shooting of Oswald?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that he told him that he was going to shoot Oswald or not, but I do know that he told him about the gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must certainly think that he might have been telling him that he was going to shoot Oswald? That is the reason he was talking about the gun?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know what I thought. I mean, I didn’t give it too much thought. I didn’t give anything much thought about it then. I have thought a lot since.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What have you thought about it since?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, in my own mind, I believe that he told Ralph Paul that he was going to shoot Oswald. But if he did, Ralph didn’t tell none of us that he did. At least I don’t think he did. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your coming here and helping us on this.