Chapter XXVII: Front Matter (27)

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, there is a slight delay there. When I arrived inside the theatre, the main portion of the theatre itself with the audience, it was still dark. I think the camera equipment must have been turned off, because I have no recollection of sound, and it was still dark when I opened the curtains. But the lights came on almost immediately, and the screen, of course, was blank at that time, and then again, just seconds, he rose, and they took him in custody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close was your photographer to you?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t have any idea. He was there someplace shooting his pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he got a picture of that episode?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I thought he did until just the other day when they told me he didn’t. Apparently the filter in the camera was in the wrong place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Oswald had said something, if you would have heard it from where you were standing?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to hear the police officers as they were standing next to Oswald some 10 feet away from you?

Mr. ROBERTSON. All I can say about that is, if I heard them, what I heard was not significant, and I don’t recall having heard anything. I mean, there obviously was noise connected with it, but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Oswald had said something and you had heard it, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If it had any significance to me, yes; but I really don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have been there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Oswald was apprehended and taken out of the theatre?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, we followed the officers and Oswald out of the theatre and then they put him in the squad car and drove downtown. We got our own car and returned to the station to leave the photographer, and then I went on down to the police station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later was it that you arrived at the police station after Oswald was apprehended?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Judging by normal driving time, half an hour or 45 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at the police station?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Stood in the hall and asked questions of those people I knew, and listened to what was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have dinner that night?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes; one of the fellows in the auto theft bureau bought some hamburgers and brought them up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never left the building?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; depending on what you mean here. I was not in that hall all the time. There were times that I was in the new section of the municipal building adjacent, in the city manager’s office, because the police department was reporting to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to Elgin Crull?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present at the time when they were reporting to him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what kind of action they were reporting and what sort of control he was exercising over them?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I had the impression that their reports were advisory. They were keeping him posted as to how the investigation was progressing. There was one officer and I am not certain which one, who talked rather loud, and Mr. Crull had to hold the phone some distance from his ear in order to be comfortable. And it was as a result of that that I learned that they were definitely going to file both charges against Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was that you learned that, approximately?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Approximately 3:15 in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the charges were not charged against Oswald until much later that night, isn’t that right?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you place it at approximately 3:15 in the afternoon that the decision to file had been made?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know how I placed it. This I can’t correlate in regard to anything else. If I could--now I assume I must have looked at a clock about that minute, because there has never been any question as to what the time was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you making notes as you were at the city hall in following out your assignment?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reporting back to anybody who was making any record of what you were observing?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I was reporting back to Mr. Walter Evans of our station, who at that time was the radio news director, keeping him advised of the information that I gathered, some of which we published and some of which we did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated when you talked to the FBI that you saw Jack Ruby sometime on November 22.

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time at which you saw him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, it was after 3:15. I can’t place the time accurately. I have tried to do so in my own mind. I am reasonably certain before I had this opportunity to eat, which my best estimate is after 7 o’clock, and before 8 o’clock. As I say, it was definitely after 3:15 after I had learned about the other. Between this time, I am at a loss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place it in terms of the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It was before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much before that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, I got the impression it was a considerable time before that, although time seemed very long in that afternoon and evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when Henry Wade and Chief Curry walked out of Captain Fritz’ office and the reporters crowded around and the decision was made to go down to the assembly room? Were you present at that time?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I was not. I was on the telephone in another room and I didn’t see Mr. Wade come out of Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after you got off that telephone, what did you do?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I learned that they were holding the press conference down in the basement, but I did something else first rather than go down there, because we had a man down there on television. I don’t recall just what else it was, but I had something I wanted to check on, so subsequently I went downstairs and I talked with Henry after the thing was over, briefly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be any possibility that you saw Jack Ruby between the time you got off the telephone call and went down to the basement?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to work backwards. Before you made this telephone call, do you recall what you had been doing? What did you make the telephone call about?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no recollection of that at all. It was one of a series of telephone calls that I can’t even give you any idea of how many, which was just a continual feeding of information into Walter Evans, and then trying to determine between ourselves which of this was valuable enough to publish and something that I would report on and what we ought to sit with until we got more confirmation, and that sort of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to pinpoint time at all between the time you had your sandwich or hamburger and the time you made that telephone call?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Not in my own mind. Perhaps there is. If it is any help to you, if you have information on time which can go with this, it may narrow it down. It was before the police department changed for the first time their shift on guard at Captain Fritz’ door. It was, I am reasonably certain, during the first shift of the two officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the officers who were on guard?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I do not. I believe--let me stress that word because I may be wrong about this, that it was after the first session of interrogation in Captain Fritz’ office. Whether it was while Oswald was upstairs, or after he had been brought back, I am not certain, but I believe it was after the first session of interrogation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any question in your mind about that man that you did see was Jack Ruby up there on the floor?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I have no doubts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose I told you that we interviewed the police officers who were on guard, and one of them says he recalls a man, who says he recognized Ruby, that he recalls a man who looks like Ruby, but it wasn’t Ruby, come up and do what you have previously described to the FBI, and go on. Would that shake your judgment in any way?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. I don’t, of course, claim that I cannot make a mistake. In my judgment, the man I saw was Jack Ruby. I know no one else who looks like that. Obviously, I could have been mistaken, but I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you think Jack Ruby, the man you think was Jack Ruby, what you recall him doing.

Mr. ROBERTSON. He walked up to the door of Captain Fritz’ office and put his hand on the knob and started to open it. He had the door open a few inches and began to step into the room, and the two officers stopped him. I was reasonably certain one of them, or some voice at that time had said, “You can’t go in there, Jack.” And the man in question, if it was not Jack Ruby, turned around and passed some joking remarks with a couple of people who were there, I don’t know who, and went back down the hall toward the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how Jack Ruby was dressed on that occasion?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. All I saw was his head; as you know, he is a comparatively short man. I saw him through a break over some people’s shoulder, and all I saw was about, well, from the shoulders. Not all of the shoulders, but a portion of the shoulders, the neck and the head.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him; did you get a full front face view of him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was in profile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing in relationship to the homicide door and the main elevator, public elevator?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I was standing almost immediately opposite Captain Fritz’ door. Perhaps a matter of 2 feet beyond it toward the pressroom, which is opposite, the opposite direction of the elevators. As this happened, I stepped closer, and ultimately was on the elevator side of Captain Fritz’ door about the middle of the hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby on down the hall to see where he went?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many feet he would have walked before he got out of sight?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was out of my sight almost instantly in that melee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you say he walked on down the hall, could it have been that he just walked a few feet and stopped?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It could have been; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him come back down the hall in the other direction?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at your position after you saw Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no idea. Considerable length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you standing there for?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Trying to get a chance to talk to Bill Alexander.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Alexander inside Fritz’ office at that time?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I wasn’t certain whether he was at that time or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subsequently find out he was in there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I subsequently saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I saw him coming out of Captain Fritz’ office later. But now I have no idea how much later. I don’t know whether he had gone in in the meantime, or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you may have walked away and come back?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think Alexander was inside Fritz’ office?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Somebody had said so; I assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that if we knew when Alexander was at the police station, we might have a more accurate estimate?

Mr. ROBERTSON. He was in and out several times throughout the evening. As a matter of fact, I saw him three or four times up until late in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you saw Ruby, do you recall any of the other news representatives who were around there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. There was a whole hall full, and I recall some of the people who were in the hall, but not necessarily in connection with that particular instant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe that the first time you were interviewed by the FBI was on January 17, 1964. Do you recall being interviewed by an FBI agent by the name of Scott?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe they called me and asked when I could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, had they had any information that you had seen Ruby up there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that there did come a time after these events occurred that you made a radio tape recounting your experiences of the 3 days?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that tape made? I don’t ask for the exact date, but approximately.

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know. At the time this question arose and the Commission asked the FBI if they would look into it further, Agent Drain contacted us and we tried to recall at that time precisely when the tape had been made, and couldn’t do so. To the best of our recollection, it was sometime around the first of the year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your best estimate be that at least a month passed before you made this tape?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Sunday, November 24, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you report to anybody in your station that you had seen Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell that to?

Mr. ROBERTSON. To Walter Evans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this used in any way as part of a newscast?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I doubt that it would have been used for a newscast. I had been under the impression that I had mentioned it in connection with a wrap-up broadcast that we had done shortly after the events, within a week or so. When all of this came up, I mentioned that, and Walter said that he recollects it was not included in that, and I believe he checked the material. But I had thought we had. I thought I talked about it at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you think back over how your own recollection of this event has evolved, have there been any changes in your mind about, in other words, as you first reported this to Evans? Has there been any difference in your conception of what had happened when you reported on it to Evans, as opposed to what it is now in your mind?

Mr. ROBERTSON. You mean have the events or descriptions changed any?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I mean to say is, very often the first time we think about this, we will describe it in one way, and then as we think about it and talk about it again, why in our own mind it changes and our description changes. Has that happened in connection with this event at all?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If it has, I am not aware of it. The only way in which I would say some sort of mutation of this sort has taken place is that, looking back from this perspective, I don’t feel so greatly that thundering herd in the hall as I did at that time. I am further removed and it seems more of an abstraction. It was at the time, frankly indescribable, in my judgment. But other than that, I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned when you talked with one of the FBI agents that in the time you had seen Ruby, you had seen him bawling out his fellow employees. Can you give us some specific instances of that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I remember one particular--I am sorry I can’t say when--I can’t even say which girl it was--and I recall I only heard a portion of the conversation. Apparently the girl had been running around with someone of whom Jack didn’t approve, and the gist of the conversation, as I understood it at the time, and this was fragmentary, was you either leave this guy alone or find some place else to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if you know any of these people. Do you know Ruby’s stripper, Little Lynn?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know her before November 22?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Not as far as I know. I don’t know her now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his stripper, Kathy Kay?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know his roommate, George Senator?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I never met Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you downtown at all on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information which might indicate how Ruby got into the police department on Sunday morning?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I heard one story, and I have no idea whether there is any validity to it or not. The story I heard was that he had gained entrance to the basement by helping a camera crew push a camera down the ramp, that he had attached himself to the crew pushing the camera, and got in that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything that would indicate that any police officer gave him any assistance or any advice?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of the interview report that the FBI made after talking with you. The first one is a report made by Special Agent Paul Scott of an interview he had with you on January 17, 1964, and it consists of three pages, and are numbered at the bottom of the page, 10, 11, and 12, and I am going to mark this at the top “Victor Robertson, Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.” I would like you to look at it, Mr. Robertson, and read it over and tell me if there are any changes or corrections that you would make in it. I really have particular reference to whether or not that is an accurate report of what you said at the time.

Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make about the report is that where it says, “While at Houston Street with Hugh Aynesworth, a WFAA photographer, he heard on a police radio that Officer Tippit had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he and Aynesworth proceeded to Oak Cliff.” Aynesworth was not the photographer. There were two separate people. The other thing I would comment on is, in the second paragraph, Mr. Scott reports accurately that I had seen Ruby, and said sometime possibly between 5 and 7 p.m., which is what I told him and was my best judgment as to the time, although it may have been slightly somewhere between 3:15 and 7 or 8 p.m. That is what I told him and I answered to my best judgment on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In light of the conversation that we have had today, is that still your best judgment or would you narrow it in some other way?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I can’t narrow it. The only thing that I can do is really broaden it to be sure that it is comprehensive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the latest you would place it at?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe the latest possibly would have been 7 or 7:30 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as Victor Robertson’s Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. This is a document that consists of two pages, and it is an interview report by FBI Agent Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he had with you on June 9, 1964. I ask you to read it and comment on that in the same way that you did on the first one.

Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make on this is at the end of the second paragraph. Mr. Drain has stated that the first time Ruby was mentioned by him was on a portion of the time that he reported in late December, 1963, etc., etc. This apparently is Vincent’s report of the consensus that was true at the time. As I said, I mentioned to him I thought I had had it in the earlier broadcast, but Walter Evans said it had not been. The other observation I would make is that I don’t recall having said between 5 and 6 o’clock. I thought I had said between 5 and 7.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you then if you will sign each of these exhibits up near the top where I have marked them.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Is this all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any place that is conspicuous.

Mr. ROBERTSON (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your taking out this time.

Mr. ROBERTSON. My pleasure. If there is anything else I can do, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF FREDERIC RHEINSTEIN

The testimony of Frederic Rheinstein was taken at 10:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 120 Linden Avenue, Long Beach, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Frederic Rheinstein, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Frederic Rheinstein.

Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to give your testimony in this matter, haven’t you, by a letter? Did you receive a letter?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You haven’t been advised of the rules of the Commission?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, you are willing to testify, though, aren’t you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am.

Mr. BALL. The purpose of the Commission is to investigate into the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and in the course of that investigation there is also an investigation into the murder of Oswald at the police station in Dallas.

Now, what is your occupation?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am a producer-director for NBC News.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with NBC News?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I have been with NBC 15 years, and with NBC News about 8.

Mr. BALL. And what is your age?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Thirty-six.

Mr. BALL. What was your education before you went with NBC?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I have a bachelor of arts degree from Princeton University.

Mr. BALL. And you went with NBC after your graduation?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. 4906 Encino Avenue, Encino, Calif.

Mr. BALL. Were you in Dallas on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Starting at approximately 5 o’clock Dallas time.

Mr. BALL. And that was on a Friday, was it not?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you commence broadcasting about that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. From WBAP Fort Worth, Tex., which is the NBC affiliate for the Dallas area.

Mr. BALL. And at any time later did you go over to Dallas with a sound truck?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Very early Saturday morning we took a WBAP remote television truck to the city jail in Dallas, I would guess at approximately 7:30 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park the truck, just describe it in general?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Approximately in front of the entrance to the city hall and directly adjacent to the ramp to the police department basement.

Mr. BALL. That’s good enough.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. With the front of the truck facing the Hilton Hotel.

Mr. BALL. Now, it was reported that during the day a man was around your sound truck, you saw him around there several times, and that you noticed him particularly because he was there around your sound truck three or four times; is that right?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then later on, the next day, on Saturday when you saw his picture----

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Excuse me, Sunday.

Mr. BALL. On Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On Sunday when you saw his picture you thought that you identified him as the man who had been around your truck; is that right?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And who was that?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That was Jack Ruby.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it’s your impression that you saw Jack Ruby around your sound truck on Saturday, November the 23d?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. About when is the first time that you saw him there?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. To the best of my recollection, I would say it was late morning.

Mr. BALL. Before lunch?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Before lunch.

Mr. BALL. And just tell in your own words what you noticed then and what he did and what you saw.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. My initial impression of Ruby was that a man, whom we later identified as Ruby, put his head through the open window of our remote truck very near the television monitors and was interestedly watching the pictures on the monitor. He caused me to look up because in putting his head through the window he put aside a curtain allowing light into the otherwise darkened truck.

Mr. BALL. How close were you to him at that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say about 3 feet. No more than 3 feet. He made no impression, because there had been several other people who had done this; not a large number of people, but it was an irritant, so his face became fixed. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Subsequently, in walking around outside the truck later I saw the same man, and I believe in person twice more and I believe I saw him during the day on our television monitors, which were not at the time necessarily being broadcast, although they were being taped possibly back in Fort Worth, but the electronic cameras are on all the time and this man passed by. He was later pointed out----

Mr. BALL. By “passed by,” you mean on the sidewalk?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; in the corridors.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in the corridors?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. In the corridors.

Mr. BALL. What floor?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had cameras on the third floor and cameras on the ground floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, you believe----

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say both times when we saw him he was on the third floor.

Mr. BALL. And he passed the cameras?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And that was during the daytime or evening?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would all be during the daytime on Saturday.

Mr. BALL. And would that be in the morning or the afternoon that you saw him?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. It would be in the morning and in the afternoon. The most pointed appearance, or the most memorable appearance of his followed an incident that took place thusly--do you want me to go ahead?

Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. An unidentified WBAP engineer alleged that the man we had seen around the truck, subsequently identified as Ruby, had taken one of the fried chicken dinners which had been brought into the truck for the WBAP crew. This allegation was made when he was seen on the third floor going into an office in which District Attorney Henry Wade was purportedly working. The reason this was significant was that reporters had not been permitted inside that office, and this man whom the cameraman pointed out as the same one who had earlier been around the truck had gained access where newsmen had been unable to gain access.

Mr. BALL. Now, would that be after lunch?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be after lunch, because this was all tied up with he being the fellow who allegedly took the fried chicken dinner.

Mr. BALL. And you had ordered the fried chicken for your lunch, had you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had ordered 14 fried chicken dinners to feed the group.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, this incident, then, must have occurred in the afternoon of the 23d of November?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And did you see it on your screen?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I saw the man who I am reasonably certain was Ruby go into a door where Henry Wade purportedly was. I did not see him come out.

Mr. BALL. He went in, but you didn’t see him come out?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He went in. He was later reported to have come out and he was followed in about 10 minutes by District Attorney Wade who then became available for questioning by newsmen.

Mr. BALL. Was it reported or did anybody tell you, any of your men tell you why this man had gone into Wade’s office?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The cameraman and stage manager reported to me on the earphones that this man, who was never, by the way, identified by name, always referred to as “the creep who was down at the truck,” had told them that he knew Wade personally and he could get some information for us or he could get him to come out and talk to us. Both during that day and, of course, during the following days, in discussions with the newsmen around there, there seems no question about the fact that the most distinguishing thing about Ruby was his desire to be friendly with the press and also to indicate that he had an entree--not necessarily influence, but an entree into the police rooms and premises at city hall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see him later that day in or around your truck?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The last time we would have seen him--the last time I saw him either in person or on the television screen was when he walked in the door where Wade allegedly was.

Mr. BALL. And that was in the afternoon?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be in the afternoon; right.

Mr. BALL. Before dinnertime?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes; it would have been, because we left there at 5:30, to go to WBAP to continue broadcasting.

Mr. BALL. Then it would have been before 5 that you saw him go into Wade’s office?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; I would say so. Certainly before 6.

Mr. BALL. And how many times do you think you saw him on the street, on the sidewalk?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say once on the sidewalk, once in the truck--or once poking his face into the truck, and twice with our cameras.

Mr. BALL. And the entire span of time, then, was sometime late in the morning until not later than 5 in the afternoon?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Five to six; right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you mentioned the fact that you didn’t know this man’s name that you saw these several times.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; I didn’t.

Mr. BALL. And the next day you did alone identify the picture of Ruby as the man you had seen the day before, or were there some others who agreed with you that they had seen him?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There were a good number of the men of the same crew that identified him.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, when was it that you did identify him, tell me the circumstances.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We identified him--the first time we took a good look at his face, at his picture, was a mug shot which was a front and profile shot which somebody obtained while still wet on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department, and our reporter was Pettit, Tom Pettit, and he held the mug shot in front of the electronic camera where it was transmitted to a tape machine where it was taped, and on both looking at it at the first time and on subsequent replays of the tape we were certain that this was the man we had seen around the truck. We certainly had his name almost immediately, because as soon as he was shot a number of people recognized him and we got the name right to our reporter, who was actually there while he was shot, which was Tom Pettit.

Mr. BALL. Then the first time you heard his name was on Sunday after the shooting?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had his name about 10 minutes or less than 10 minutes after he shot him, actually. NBC did, and we were late because we were all out-of-towners.

Mr. BALL. Then when you saw the mug shot, when your group saw the mug shot on a replay of the tape you knew the name of the man?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, how many of you were around the camera or how many of you saw the mug shot?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would guess the discussion was had with about four or five people. Basically the men who work in the truck. And, I’m sorry, I can get the names of the men who were there for you, but I----

Mr. BALL. You don’t have the names now?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There are too many trucks and too many things. There would be a switcher and a director and a video engineer and an audio man.

Mr. BALL. They were all Fort Worth people, were they?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. All WBAP, Fort Worth, and they were the same group who had been with us constantly. And there was a technical supervisor who also was there. I can put their faces to you, but I can’t give you their names.

Mr. BALL. You don’t remember their names. Now, I will turn to another subject, Mr. Rheinstein. Did you go in the police building on Saturday and on Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You weren’t there on Sunday, were you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were at the police building on Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I had two mobile units on Sunday morning because they were moving him from the city to the county. I started at the city, made sure the cameras were all in place and----

Mr. BALL. That’s in the basement of the city hall?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes. One was in the basement, two were actually on the third floor, and, as a matter of fact, what we were trying to do was move one of the cameras from the third floor down to the basement, so I left instructions to do that and went down to the county jail where we had another mobile unit, for the first time, and we had a communications setup where I would, since I knew everything, I would call the shots, so to speak, from the county. Right before they were going to move him I came back for a last minute check at the city jail, and actually at the time of the shooting I was at the county jail. About 30 minutes later, 40, 40 minutes probably, after the shooting, and after we went off the air, I came back, we dispatched the county jail unit to the hospital and I came back and operated once again out of the city jail, so I was there a number of times.

Mr. BALL. You were at the county jail, then, at the time of the actual shooting?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. At the time of the shooting I was calling the shots in the other mobile unit.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, on Saturday when you went into the various parts of the building that were being used by the Dallas Police Department, were you ever asked to identify yourself in order to get in?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I think conceivably once I was asked to show a credential.

Mr. BALL. What about on Sunday morning when you went into the basement?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.

Mr. BALL. Were you asked to show a credential?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. In fairness to the Dallas Police Department, I would offer the fact that a guy who has been out there in a mobile unit for over the period of time I was there, I was recognized.

Mr. BALL. As a man with NBC?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. As a man with NBC.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And as a director, you know.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go down the ramp in the morning, on Sunday morning?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you walk down the ramp?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I had a cameraman with me.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a camera?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, the electronic camera was already down there, although later on I supervised the moving of a camera down there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a badge on display?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did the cameraman have a badge on display?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. This was one of our problems, because after the shooting they insisted on badges and the WBAP--although I carry a Los Angeles Police Department Badge, which proved sufficient, the WBAP men had no identification.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have the first name of a cameraman at WBAP, Herman.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; that’s the wrong first name, it’s Homer.

Mr. BALL. Homer?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And I still can’t remember the last name. But he and I, Belli subpenaed he and I down in Dallas on the trial. We never got on the stand. I can’t think of his name.

Mr. BALL. Then there was a reporter named Pettit, you have mentioned his name.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Tom Pettit; right.

Mr. BALL. Then a film man from Shreveport, La.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Whose name still escapes me.

Mr. BALL. He is a free lancer?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And he was just working for you that day?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He was working over that 3-day period.

Mr. BALL. As a film man for you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right. Either of these men’s names are available if you want to call up.

Mr. BALL. Would you do that and call it in?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I sure will.

Mr. BALL. I think that’s all. Is there anything else you would like to tell us or that you think would be of any assistance to us in the investigation? Do you know anything else other than what you have already told us about the problem?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I really don’t. I really don’t. You know, I don’t think this is particularly valid for the record, but my overall impression was that Ruby had no particular in with the Dallas police, he was--if you work in the news business there is a type, and you know this a lot better than I do, who enjoys authority, and to ingratiate himself into what he considers high places he does almost anything. The general attitude of the police and the people of the Dallas press and whatnot of Ruby is that he was sort of a nuisance, but an omnipresent nuisance, you know, he was the kind of guy you just accepted there, and I have always said this is just the kind of guy who becomes practically inconspicuous because he is well enough known as a nuisance type, and I have always--my own personal conviction, which is worth absolutely nothing, is that if there had been not a newsman in the place, somebody would have been sure to find Ruby there and pushed him out of the way, but Ruby would have been able to get in simply because he was such a familiar type, you know, everybody there just knew who he was. I never found anybody who said anything endearing about him. That’s all I can say.

Mr. BALL. That’s all, then, I guess.

TESTIMONY OF ICARUS M. PAPPAS

The testimony of Icarus M. Pappas was taken at 9 a.m., on July 29, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself for the record.

My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress, in November of last year. As you probably know, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson on all the facts we are able to determine.

We have asked you to come here in particular this morning, Mr. Pappas, because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and you had occasion to meet Jack Ruby.

Now, under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition. I might also add that under the Commission’s rules, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice in writing before you appear here. So I would ask you at the outset if you did receive a letter from us and when it was that you actually received it.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; actually, I received it Monday afternoon, this being Wednesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we have not complied with the 3-day notice requirement. But I see you are here. And I presume you are willing to waive the notice requirement.

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes; that is why I came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any questions you would want to ask me about the deposition we are going to take before we get into it?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so. I think I may have a question as we go along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free to ask it.

If you will raise your right hand--do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAPPAS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your name?

Mr. PAPPAS. Icarus M. Pappas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. PAPPAS. 301 East 48th Street, Manhattan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. New York City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there in November of 1963?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you employed at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. WNEW Radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you still employed there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a New York radio station?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you happen to be in Dallas on the 22d of November?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you arrived in Dallas?

Mr. PAPPAS. Approximately 8 p.m., Dallas time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that when you arrived at the airport?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Dallas Police and Courts building some time later that evening?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. It was the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you to get out there? When would you expect you arrived?

Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly 8:30, 8:20. It took us as long as it takes to get from the airport to the city hall. And I believe it is about 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you went directly to the city hall?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people with you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. There were several other reporters and photographers from New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember their names?

Mr. PAPPAS. Only one that I can remember. His name was Bill Saro.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he with?

Mr. PAPPAS. He left United Press--he is with the Herald Tribune, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was with United Press at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. I believe he was with the Herald Tribune at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

You used the word Saro, and it sounds a little like Carroll. I notice in one of the interviews the FBI had with you they reported that one of the people you were with was a man by the name of Carroll, Mickey Carroll of the New York Herald Tribune. Is this the same person?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; Carroll was later on. We worked together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Now, when you arrived at the city hall, where did you first go?

Mr. PAPPAS. We went to the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with any of the officials there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were stopped at the elevator by a police captain, I think, or a lieutenant--some officer--he checked our credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, was there any procedure set up for identifying and screening newsmen that you were aware of?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, only the procedure I described--that there was a man posted at the elevator who asked for my identification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not asked to check in with any central office?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time while you were there were you given any instructions by the police department as to where you were to be, where you were allowed to be, and what procedures, if any, were to be followed?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were instructed that we were not to be in the office, the homicide office, where the questioning was going on. We were in the corridor, on the third floor. We were not told--I don’t think that any limitations were drawn, or any boundaries beyond which we could not go were laid out for us, except that we were not allowed into the homicide office. And they had a guard outside to make sure of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware of anyone in the police department who was performing liaison responsibilities with the press, or who had some special designation as a person that members of the press should contact?

Mr. PAPPAS. No, no; later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Later meaning----

Mr. PAPPAS. I am talking about the trial. They had a public relations man. The thought flashed across my mind. But that was during the second time I was in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your activities at the police department between the time you arrived and about midnight when District Attorney Wade held a press conference down in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I performed the job I was sent there to do--mainly to gather information and to report back to New York on it. I stayed on the third floor hoping to get interviews with people who might have seen the assassination, and I was required by my office to report back immediately, which I did. I went across the street to the White Plaza Hotel, made a phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time would that have been? How soon after you arrived?

Mr. PAPPAS. I would say 45 minutes, and that is only an approximation, because I have not thought about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to the phones in the police department for communication with New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; but not immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that come about?

Mr. PAPPAS. After midnight for me, sometime after midnight, well into the morning, when things had settled down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember--let me ask you this. You did have occasion to meet Jack Ruby while you were in Dallas?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time before the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I did not meet him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a reporter from one of the Washington newspapers by the name of O’Leary?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; not by name. Perhaps by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you this because in talking with O’Leary, O’Leary had the recollection that he met Ruby with you on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department sometime before the press conference, and he thought it was in the vicinity of the public elevators. Do you recall anything like that?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall that; no. If this incident happened, if O’Leary is right about the person that he was with, I don’t remember it. Perhaps somebody--I don’t even know who it was that I was with that night. There was a lot of confusion. If this person was Jack Ruby, he didn’t do anything that would make that occurrence stick in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might be able to identify O’Leary, a little better for you, by indicating that he explained to us that on Sunday you and he had worked out a procedure whereby you figured out whether you could, by running, beat the elevator from the third floor down to the basement. As I recall his explanation, he said that you rode on the elevator and he ran down the stairs, and you two found that he could run down the stairs before the elevator could get down there. Do you remember that episode?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t. I think O’Leary has me mistaken for someone else. I don’t recall that at all.

This was Sunday, of course, the day of the killing of Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t recall that incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Henry Wade came out of the homicide office just before the conference was held in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. Friday night, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how close you were to the homicide door, and what happened that you recall?

Mr. PAPPAS. As I recall it, I was at the head of the corridor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where is the head?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the public elevators?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it is near the public elevators; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or were you closer to the homicide room?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is in an “L” form. As you come out of the elevators, you have to turn left to go down the corridor. Well, from the elbow, let’s say, of the “L” to the homicide office, I couldn’t judge--perhaps 30 or 40 feet, roughly. I don’t know. But I was--if we are using that standard that I just described, I was approximately 30 feet from Mr. Wade, who was coming out of the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when Wade came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. I listened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened?

Mr. PAPPAS. Then everybody crowded around him and they said, “What do you have to say, Henry? What about this? What about that?” And he started to talk, and a lot of people protested, they said they could not hear him, the Nation was listening, they wanted to know who this fellow Oswald was. He finally agreed, I believe--he said, “Okay, let’s all go downstairs.”

I didn’t know where downstairs was, but I said to myself if that is where they are all going, that is where I am going. And I asked someone beside me, and said, “Where are we going?” and he said, “They are going to hold a press conference downstairs.” I said, “Great.” And I followed Chief Curry and District Attorney Wade downstairs, where we all jammed into the lineup room, I suppose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself in the assembly room in relationship to Henry Wade?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were all in there first, before Wade came in. He stayed outside for awhile. I set my microphone up, or tried to get in position with the other microphones which were on the table. And we all expected Wade to come over there to deliver his statement, and also to answer questions. Actually, Wade placed himself in position to me, which was right next to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby while you were in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any conversation or any remarks that Jack Ruby made to Henry Wade while in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after--how long is it you estimate that the press conference lasted in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think I could estimate that. I don’t know. I really didn’t pay any attention to the length of the press conference. I don’t want to mislead you. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after the press conference ended?