Chapter XII: Front Matter (12)

There was a mob scene, a terrible thing, and I would have uniformed officers help me to get from my office to the chief’s office, to the elevator, and back, to get through the crowd, so he could have been in that crowd and I wouldn’t know it. I have heard since, he was in the crowd, and he probably was. I wouldn’t have known. I would have thought he was another one of those men from the same crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the planning of the exact transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Captain FRITZ. I can’t say that there was a meeting of any kind planning the transfer, but if there was, I wasn’t there. At the time of the transfer, when the chief told me that an armored money truck had been provided to transfer him, I know it was a surprise to me, because I had never heard of that. I had never heard of that before, and I told the chief I didn’t think it was a good thing to try to move him in a money wagon, because we don’t know the driver or anything about the wagon, and it would be clumsy and awkward, and I didn’t think it was a good idea at all.

I had nothing to do with the setting up of the plan, until my talk with the chief just before the transfer, nor with the setting up of the security in the basement. None of that comes under my heading.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that it would be the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department rather than the sheriff’s office to transfer Oswald?

Captain FRITZ. The day before the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Saturday?

Captain FRITZ. That would have been on Saturday, I believe. I don’t want to be too positive about an hour or time, but in one of my conversations with the chief, I asked him if the sheriff intended to transfer him or if we would transfer him, and he told me that he had been talking to the sheriff and we would transfer him.

Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure that would have been on Saturday and not Sunday morning?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; it wouldn’t have been on Sunday morning. It would have been before Sunday morning, because some reference was made about the time of transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. What reference was made about the time of transfer?

Captain FRITZ. Well, in one of my conversations with the chief, you will see from my testimony, the chief asked me about transferring him at 4 o’clock the day before, and I told him I didn’t think we could be through with our questioning at that time.

At that time he asked me about 10 o’clock the next morning, and I told him we thought we could be ready by 10 o’clock the next morning. We went, I believe, an hour overtime with the interrogation, but we tried to finish up by 10 o’clock the next morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that makes you certain that the decision that the Dallas Police Department would be responsible for the transfer rather than the sheriff’s office, was made on Saturday rather than Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. On Saturday rather than Sunday, I am sure that it was, because I had talked to the sheriff one time myself during one of those previous days, and I made some remark to him, something about the transfer, and he told me to bring him on when we were ready; so I can’t tell you exactly what conversation that was, but it was pretty well understood we were to do the transferring.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a departure from the usual system?

Captain FRITZ. We transferred a great many of the prisoners in major cases. It is not a usual thing. We don’t do it every day, but we often do it in major cases. It isn’t the sheriff’s duty to transfer the prisoner. It is usually done by a constable.

Mr. HUBERT. You get a constable under the authority of the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; under the authority of the constable. That is the usual procedure. But it is not unusual in major cases where we think that certain precautions should be used, for us to make the transfer. In fact, I transferred Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Why is it that you do it rather than the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. It is just a matter of safety. It wouldn’t make a bit of difference with us who transferred him, just so that he was transferred safely and carefully. We don’t care. The sheriff sometimes transfers them. If I call him; when I think a man is a little bit unruly, the sheriff often handles the transfer.

I started to tell you, after they are filed on, they become the sheriff’s prisoner. I couldn’t tell you about the rules of transfer, why the constable transfers the other prisoners instead of the sheriff, but that is the usual thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for you to have made the investigation and the interrogation of Oswald that was made on Saturday and Sunday morning at the county jail rather than in the homicide office?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; that wouldn’t have been good at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why?

Captain FRITZ. Well, there are many reasons. First our records wouldn’t be there, would be one thing, and we wouldn’t have the witnesses at the county jail for the lineups and would be out of contact with the office for incoming information. The city hall would be quite a distance from us. There are certain other things that might interfere with questioning at the county jail. It was bad enough where we were.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, where you were was a pretty bad situation for it?

Captain FRITZ. Ordinarily it wouldn’t be such a bad situation. It was a bad situation because of all that news media that had turned into a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was getting at, whether or not any consideration was given to moving Oswald to the county jail actually to get away from the crowd and conduct the investigation under the conditions that wouldn’t involve the crowd?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I don’t think that would have been good at all. That would be completely away from the office and the records and the some 15 or 20 officers that were required to conduct the investigation, and we would have to move our entire organization to the county jail, which would have been impossible.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you tell Chief Curry that you were concerned about the mass of people on the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. No. I am not sure that I spoke to him about this. I did speak to some of the officers about giving us some help in the hall, because the people were crowding us. They did assign two uniform men to my door. I didn’t have to ask for that. Some of the chiefs did that. They could no doubt see what I could see. They assigned two men to my door, and kept the door locked, and we only admitted the officers and people who should come in. Then they supplied some other officers to move the people down the hall so we could get back, because we had to go back and forth to the chief’s office or to the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on Sunday the 24th that there was quite a crowd of people in the basement, which was a part of the transfer route that was being planned?

Captain FRITZ. I hadn’t been down there in the basement. I had been, as I told you before, real busy in my office, and we had been continuing our questioning in company with some Federal officers from the Secret Service, and FBI, and at one time the marshal was over there, and some of the postal authorities, trying to finish up our investigation as fast as we could, and I hadn’t been down in the basement. But I had been down there either the early morning or the night before, and I had seen all the big lights set up in the basement and in the basement door, so when the chief told me about the transfer, I told him we ought to get rid of the lights and get the people out of the door that would interfere with our getting to the car for the transfer. After I was late getting started the chief came back to my office and asked if we were ready to transfer him, I told him “When the security downstairs was ready, we were ready.” And he said, “The lights have been moved back and the people have been moved back in the basement, back of the rail, and the other people have been moved across the street.” Which would have given us ample room to get into the car and get rolling with him. Once we had gotten into the car, we would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you kept advised as to the plan of transfer on Sunday morning?

Captain FRITZ. On what part of the plan, please?

Mr. HUBERT. The route and the vehicles.

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I was not until the chief came to my office. I suggested we move him in an unmarked car instead of that money wagon, and the chief agreed with me, but as far as setting up the protection in the basement and getting the money wagon, I had nothing to do with that. I don’t know where that arrangement was made.

Mr. HUBERT. Your suggestion in regard to the crowd in the basement was really with reference to the lights and so forth?

Captain FRITZ. The lights and the people, of course. Those people were in our way every time we moved that man from my office to the jail and back. We had to push him and pull him through the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a suggestion that the people, the news media in the basement just be removed altogether so that there would be nobody there?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t handle that. I had nothing to do with the arrangement in the basement. I did ask that they be moved out of our way, and I believe there was a number of officers down there to do that.

I want to say this in fairness to the chief. As we started to leave, he told me that the people were moved across the street, and the other people were back of the railing, and I think he thought they were. I think someone must have changed his order down there. We first called down and they told us everything was all right. One of my officers called on the telephone, before we went down to the jail. I kept my officers back in the jail until I asked two officers outside the jail if the security was good, and they said it was all right. But when we walked out, they climbed over my car and we met the crowd and the officers coming forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the shooting?

Captain FRITZ. Almost simultaneous. We had already gotten out of the jail door when the shooting happened. We were only a few feet out into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, after you came out of the jail door and walked down the corridor to the car, there was a general surge?

Captain FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Six or five feet?

Captain FRITZ. Probably as far as far as from here to that door.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 8 or 9 feet?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I don’t think, any more than that, probably. We probably have the measurements.

Mr. HUBERT. The fact is that as soon as you began to come out, the whole crowd surged forward?

Captain FRITZ. I had turned toward my car to reach for the door to open the rear door, and I just told the two officers to put him right here in the rear of the car when I heard the shot. Mr. Dhority was sitting at the wheel. He was backing my car back, and he was being hindered in backing the car by people getting around and behind it--both officers and other people. And as I started to reach for the door, the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, when you came down there, you met a condition which you had not anticipated in this sense. That it was your impression that although the news media would be down there, they would be back of that rail?

Captain FRITZ. Had they been back there, everything would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that there would be nobody on the jail side of the rail and nobody on the main ramp, Main Street ramp?

Captain FRITZ. That is right; we thought we had clearance there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that when you came outside you caused Oswald and the two guards with him, Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves, to halt in the jail office and you went out and called out as to whether it was clear?

Captain FRITZ. A lieutenant was standing there in uniform, and I asked him, and he told me that the security was OK. A detective also gave the same answer.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be Captain Talbert?

Captain FRITZ. No; it wasn’t Captain Talbert. I thought it was Captain Talbert at first but it was Lieutenant Wiggins from the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. You said there was another officer that you asked?

Captain FRITZ. Two officers answered me. A detective answered with this lieutenant.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer was that it was all right?

Captain FRITZ. That it was all right. I presume they had been told it was all right, because of the way they answered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a conversation just prior to the move about the security?

Captain FRITZ. With the chief; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said and what you said about it?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. As I told you, I told him--he asked me were we ready for the transfer. Chief Stevenson and several were there. And Mr. Holmes from the Postal Inspection Office; and I believe one of the Secret Service men; and one of the FBI officers; and several of my officers.

And I told him we were ready to transfer him any time the security was ready in the basement, and he said everything is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he would check further, or he just told you?

Captain FRITZ. He just told me. He didn’t tell me how he checked.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go and check again?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know. I can’t answer that because he left my office. He told me that he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the decision as to the actual moment of moving?

Captain FRITZ. Of course, the chief asked me if we were ready. We got ready, because I had told him the night before we would try to be ready at 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So you gave the signal to go?

Captain FRITZ. To these officers; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think there was one officer ahead of you when you all went down in the elevator?

Captain FRITZ. Lieutenant Swain went out ahead of me, and I was behind Lieutenant Swain, and then my officers and Oswald back of me, one officer on each side, and one behind him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that group come down from the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. We all came down the inside jail elevator to the jail office, and through the jail office and around the back of the jail office. This brought the prisoner out of a side door that would put us near our car.

Had we gone out of the other door, we would have had to go through a hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your concern about the news media being on the main ramp and not behind the rail?

Captain FRITZ. Well, they interfered with our movement upstairs each time we took Oswald to and from the jail, they would holler at him and ask questions and say things to him that would have a tendency to, I thought, aggravate him. I think part of it he seemed to enjoy, and part of it he seemed to be irritated about.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media?

Captain FRITZ. My concern was to do all I could to prevent a killing or an escape.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media not being on the outside of the rail, or was it concerned with fear of Oswald’s safety, or simply that these people were in the way?

Captain FRITZ. Both. They were in the way, and anyone that hindered us or held us up could cause something to happen there.

We wouldn’t have been taking all those precautions if we hadn’t been afraid something might happen.

I had even thought of the possibility of someone trying to take the prisoner. That was the reason we handcuffed him to an officer.

In a case as serious as that, we certainly didn’t want to lose him after a thing as serious as having had the President shot.

Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was, whether your concern was that the position and closeness and mass of the news media there presented a threat insofar as single-man action was concerned?

Captain FRITZ. We didn’t know many of those people. We knew very few. We knew the local people. Many people were there from foreign countries, and some of them looked unkempt. We didn’t know anything about who they were.

For that reason, we wouldn’t want them up there with us at all if we could avoid it, plus the fact that the camera lights were blinding, and if you couldn’t see where you were going or what you were doing, anything could happen.

We didn’t think we would have lights in our eyes, but we were blinded by lights. Just about the time we left the jail office, the lights came on, and were blinding.

We got along all right with the press here in Dallas. They do what we ask. These people didn’t act that way. These people were excited and acted more like a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to any other officer or the chief that there were some people there that you didn’t know who were unkempt and that you were concerned about who they were?

Captain FRITZ. We talked about it among ourselves; the officers. We didn’t have much time for talking. Those were busy times.

We gathered all the evidence the first afternoon and the next day, and we had ample evidence to try that man the next morning if it had been necessary to try him, so the officers were busy and we were all busy, and we didn’t have time for that crowd or time to make a good appraisal of them.

But I am just giving you a rough idea of how they looked. They didn’t look like our local people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to any superior officer of yours?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t suppose that I did. We remarked about them, but I wouldn’t remember what the remarks were or who they were to.

It was well known to all officers. You didn’t have to tell anyone on the third floor. They could see from the front office as well as they could from my office because of the large crowd located outside my office and in the entire hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that a suggestion had been made that Oswald be moved at night, possibly Friday night or Saturday night.

Captain FRITZ. Who made the suggestion? By whom, please, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I think it was passed on to you, and I understand that you recommended against it.

Captain FRITZ. A call at home--no, sir; I didn’t exactly recommend against it. If you would ask me now, I really don’t favor nighttime moves, because I can’t see any further at night than I can in the daytime, and if a man shoots a man, you can see him just as far in daylight as at night, and with proper security, you should be able to move anyone through town without waiting for nightfall.

We don’t go to court at night, and we take prisoners back and forth to court all the time during the daylight, so I wouldn’t see any particular need to wait for nighttime.

I did have a call out to my home from a uniformed captain who told me they had had a threat which sounded very much like a trick, the FBI got a call, I believe, near the same time saying we had better transfer him, that 200 or 300 men are going to take him away from us.

I certainly wouldn’t send a man out with two or three officers. Two or three hundred men could be just as bad at night as during the day.

I told him he had better talk to the chief, because he was making some preparations. And I found out later that he did. He called the chief, but I don’t think he could reach him, and he decided not to transfer him, I was told.

That call came after my call from the chief asking me about the 10 o’clock transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. There have been some reports that have reached us that at the very moment of transfer, that is to say, when you were coming out, and until the shooting, that the various police officers who were lining the wall had their sidearms drawn and in their hands. Did you see anything like that?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anything like that as I came out. I think probably what they are telling you about, is that some of the officers drew their sidearms after the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any----

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anyone with a pistol in their hand as we came out. If we had seen that, we probably would have gone back to the jail, because we wouldn’t have known what an officer was doing with a gun drawn. He had no need to have a gun out at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shotguns visible or riot guns?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I didn’t. We had shotguns and rifles in my car for this transfer. I had already put them on the floor of the car where we could pick them up easily.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they visible?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; they weren’t visible. There was an officer with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain, I believe that is all I have. Is there anything else you can say?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything other than one thing that the chief mentioned to me. He said something about someone recommended someone taking him off on the first floor of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any discussion this morning between us that has not been made a part of this deposition?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t believe so. I think all of this is in my testimony in Washington. I feel sure that it is.

Anything else that you want to ask me about, feel free to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain. That is all there is to it.

TESTIMONY OF SGT. ROLAND A. COX

The testimony of Sgt. Roland A. Cox was taken at 8:15 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sgt. Roland A. Cox. Mr. Cox, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Cox, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Cox, I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a request made to you to come by letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you appear here, I suppose, because Chief----

Mr. COX. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Asked you to come?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a reserve officer, I think?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every person who appears to have his deposition taken, as you are here tonight, has a right to a 3-day written notice to appear. But those rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish to do so. In view of the fact that you have not received the 3-day notice, I ask you whether you are willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify here tonight?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I ask you to rise and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. COX. Roland A. Cox.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. COX. De Soto, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What street address?

Mr. COX. 311 Bob White.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. COX. Service department, Sears Roebuck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the city of Dallas?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. COX. Since 1946.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963?

Mr. COX. November 24, that Sunday? Wasn’t November 24 that Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put the question to you this way. Were you, during the period November 22 through 24, 1963, a member of the reserve force of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What rank did you hold then?

Mr. COX. Sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?

Mr. COX. Yes; D-11.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserves?

Mr. COX. Got my 10-year pin about 3 months ago, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you called to duty during the weekend of the President’s assassination?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What day were you called to duty?

Mr. COX. I believe I worked on that Friday night and again on Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. That was by special call, or was that your regular reserve night?

Mr. COX. No; that was a request by Barney Merle. That was what, Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. The 22d of November, and Saturday was the 23d.

Mr. COX. That would be--the third Friday is a regular night, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. I am looking at a calendar, and it seems that the 22d of November of 1963 was the fourth Friday.

Mr. COX. No; it was not a regular night, I don’t believe. I believe mine is the second Tuesday and third Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. So this was a special duty?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive on Friday the 22d?

Mr. COX. Approximately 7.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report to?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Merle.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the reserve, or regular?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Member of the reserve?

Mr. COX. He is a lieutenant in the reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report to him?

Mr. COX. In the basement assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. Then that was about 7 o’clock?

Mr. COX. Around 7; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment at that time?

Mr. COX. I went out with the traffic investigator about 8 or a little after 8 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 7 and 8, that is, the time before you went out with the traffic investigator, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. COX. Well, I was in, I guess you would call it, I don’t know what you would call it, the basement where they bring all the prisoners in.

Mr. HUBERT. In the jail office?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go up to the third floor?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out on this assignment which began at 8 o’clock?

Mr. COX. We investigated one wreck, and I believe that was all, by the city car barn, and then we picked up--well, a newspaperman, I can’t think of where he was from, and we went down to the records building. Well, that was a special assignment. The investigator has got to take him around with him also on the investigation of the wreck. We took him down to this records building and showed him that building, and I got in about, well, 10 something. I had a call to call home, and I got in about 10 something and made that call, and my wife wanted me to come home, so I went on home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were never up on the third floor at all that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you knew Ruby, didn’t you?

Mr. COX. I knew Ruby by working in a night club of his about 8 or 9 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the Vegas?

Mr. COX. Vegas Club on Oak Lawn, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him?

Mr. COX. First night I was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. You went out to get employment?

Mr. COX. No; I was sent by the city, special officer to the city’s night club officers.

Mr. HUBERT. You were sent out there for what purpose?

Mr. COX. Keep those drunks quiet.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be employed by Ruby?

Mr. COX. Special officer. They get a night club officer assigned by the city to certain clubs to keep the trouble down.

Mr. HUBERT. So your employment by Ruby was really by way of an assignment by the city?

Mr. COX. By the city’s special services.

Mr. HUBERT. By the city?

Mr. COX. Right. He pays them, and they pay us.

Mr. HUBERT. So you didn’t receive a check or money from Ruby?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work every night?

Mr. COX. No; Friday and Saturday most of the time. That is big nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be in uniform then?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you so work for Ruby? Over what period?

Mr. COX. Oh, I don’t know how long I worked for Ruby. It wasn’t too long. Not too long. They sent me different places.

Mr. HUBERT. You say the first time you worked there was about 8 years ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine. It’s been a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time?

Mr. COX. I didn’t work for him long. Maybe 3 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Just 3 months, and that was back 8 or 9 years ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. And you haven’t seen him since, or you had not seen him until----

Mr. COX. I have not seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether other members of the Dallas police force went to Ruby’s place during the period you are talking about when you were employed by him?

Mr. COX. The only police that ever came there were individual squadmen and liquor control boardmen. They come in, all of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any incidents where he served liquor to them free?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be particularly friendly with any of them?

Mr. COX. They didn’t talk to him too much. They always come to the officer in charge.

Mr. HUBERT. They came to you?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you said that the last time you worked out there at Ruby’s place would have been----

Mr. COX. It was around Christmas, or possibly--yes; about Christmas time. Probably New Year’s, the last I worked, about 8 or 9 years ago. I tell you, it is on record at the city hall. It’s just been too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t seen him at all in the time since?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him when you were on duty on Sunday morning?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty then?

Mr. COX. Commerce Street, south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. COX. Around 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty, and who placed you on it?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Ben McCoy.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific duty at that point?

Mr. COX. Keep pedestrians back on the sidewalk and traffic moving.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were placed then on the opposite side of Commerce Street from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. COX. Yes; south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on that duty?

Mr. COX. Must have been about 10 or 15 after 10.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. COX. Till after 11, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stay until after the shooting?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when the armored car came up?

Mr. COX. Yes; I held up traffic while that big one backed in.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the little one, where was it at that time?

Mr. COX. I believe the little one was parked against the curb; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it past the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. COX. Yes; it was past the Commerce Street entrance, because there was TV trucks sitting directly in front of the city hall on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you actually left your post of duty?

Mr. COX. I wouldn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. About how long after the shooting did you leave?

Mr. COX. Maybe 20 minutes, until the crowd kind of dispersed.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you relieved by someone?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I mean there wasn’t anything else to do when the crowd left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby around that Commerce Street entrance at anytime?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On that day?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a publication by a man named Joe Sherman of the Dallas Times Herald on November the 25th which indicated that you had seen him, which of course is contrary to what you have just told us. Could you explain anything about that?

Mr. COX. Yes; I will explain it to you. I was talking to a reserve captain in the basement. Let me think of his name. Captain Kris, I believe. We were talking about the thing happening, and also what people had said, and this news reporter went from there. In other words, that is the way he got it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to this man, Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. Yes. He came into the conversation. Asked me if I knew Jack Ruby, and I said I once worked for him at that night club, the Vegas Club, and that is how that thing got in the paper. As far as me saying he had been in the basement, or how he had been in there, that was just strictly his say.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record so we get it straight, let me read to you what he said, and then I am going to ask you if that is the truth or not.

Police Sgt. R. A. Cox said he once worked for Jack Ruby as a special officer in the night club he once operated on Oak Lawn. He said that Ruby had a camera with him or when he entered the basement in the Dallas police station Sunday morning. Did you tell that to Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were about to explain.

Mr. COX. I told Kris somebody said “he even had a camera.” That is how that happened. I didn’t say that he had one. I said “someone said he had one.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now at what time did this conversation with Kris occur which was overheard by Mr. Sherman?

Mr. COX. Well, it was after I came in out of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you came in out of the street about 20 minutes after?

Mr. COX. About 20 minutes after; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing where?

Mr. COX. In the basement. In fact, in that hall where it goes into the----

Mr. HUBERT. So that your point is, you did not say this to Kris, but this reporter just picked it up?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The police reporter just heard you saying something about a camera, but did not hear you say that the people or somebody was saying that he had a camera?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had heard some people say he had a camera?

Mr. COX. Said he came in with the newsman.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear that from?

Mr. COX. Just conversation. There was a lot of talk after that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall any particular person that you got that from?

Mr. COX. No; sure don’t. I told Captain Solomon about it after it happened, after that statement came out. I told him it wasn’t true, right away.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that it was Ruby involved?

Mr. COX. When I was in the street. It was on the radio. I was still in the street when it came over the radio that someone had shot him, and then when I walked down into the basement after I left the street, someone said that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. That is when I first knew it.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear anything about a camera.

Mr. COX. In the basement. There were a lot of people gathered talking, a lot of officers. You know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. So in other words, the picture as I see it was that you picked up from somebody that there was a story that Ruby had come in as a newsman?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that statement was made to Kris?

Mr. COX. I was talking to Kris.

Mr. HUBERT. And this reporter overheard it and painted it in that way?

Mr. COX. That is exactly right.

Mr. HUBERT. When this came out, did you notice the incorrectness of it?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything about it?

Mr. COX. I called Captain Solomon about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Mr. Sherman, the reporter?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in this same story, which is a story dated November 25, appearing in the Times Herald by Joe Sherman, there is a further statement attributed to you which is actually a direct quote, according to Mr. Sherman, and reads as follows: “He must have had a press card with him, said Sergeant Cox. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been allowed in the basement at all. Our instructions were to keep everybody away but pressmen with proper identification.” Now did you make that statement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were simply then not stating a fact, but an assumption that he must have?

Mr. COX. That’s right, because I couldn’t see how he got in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any security measures used to prevent entry into the basement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir. I observed policemen on every door at the--when I say the basement entrance, plus the entrance to the building through the basement. There was an entrance on Commerce Street where you walk down into a little hall.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a policeman stationed there?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. No; a regular.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was stationed at the Commerce Street ramp entrance?

Mr. COX. I know one sergeant. His name is Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there throughout the morning?

Mr. COX. He was there when I got there. I believe his name is L. W. Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any other policemen at other entrances such as Main Street?

Mr. COX. Not on the Main Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about the security within the basement?

Mr. COX. No; I was taken directly to the street to control traffic and pedestrians out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, you did not see Ruby enter that building on that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, I repeat, or you repeat you haven’t seen him in some 8 or 9 years?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him anywhere that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On this story which appeared in the Dallas Times Herald on Monday, November 25, on page A-35, which also, I don’t believe it is a continuation of the previous story, because that previous story appears on page A-9, and the previous story by Joe Sherman seems to be concluded on that page. The reference to you in that same edition of the Dallas Times Herald on page A-35 seems to be a continuation of another story, and it refers to you in the same way, actually, that the previous story referred to you. I am unable to tell whether it is a story by Mr. Sherman or not, or whether it is a story by anyone else, but I ask you whether or not you know of any way other than through Sherman that the story on page A-35 could have been carried regarding you, to wit, that you had worked for him and that you said Ruby had a camera with him when he entered?

Mr. COX. You mean that would be in the Sunday paper, right?

Mr. HUBERT. No; that was the Monday paper.

Mr. COX. That would be the only way.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you never made any kind of statement concerning Ruby except the one you have referred to already and explained? That is, the one made to, or which was overheard by Sherman?

Mr. COX. That’s right; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. This may be repeating the point, but this second apparent interview which is on page A-35, makes the flat statement that one police sergeant who worked for Ruby, and you are later identified as being that one, said that Ruby had a camera with him, indicating that you had seen him, and is it your opinion that this could only have come from the overhearing of your conversation with Kris by this writer called Sherman?

Mr. COX. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, to get the record straight on it, you never saw Ruby enter with a camera?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you in fact say that he did?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Sergeant Cox, anything else you want to comment?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us, I think, tonight other than that which was recorded, is that correct?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. FLEMING

The testimony of Harold J. Fleming was taken at 3:45 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold Fleming. Mr. Fleming, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Fleming, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Fleming, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, which I understand you received as late as last Friday?

Mr. FLEMING. July 10.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if you would take the oath, please?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FLEMING. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. Harold J. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. FLEMING. 10611 Lennox Lane in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. I am a corporate counsel and general operations manager of Armored Motor Service, Inc.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that company located?

Mr. FLEMING. Home offices are in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a branch of that operation in the city of Dallas?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; we do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your connection with the Dallas operation?

Mr. FLEMING. I am general operations manager for the company, and the Dallas office is one of our branches. By virtue of my position, I have worked on operational problems and legal problems arising in the Dallas city branch.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a lawyer?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record, please, sir, the occupation of Harold Fleming and Don Goin and Edward Dietrich?

Mr. FLEMING. Did you say Harold Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Bert Hall. I think his name is Marvin Hall.

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; Marvin E. Hall is vice president and branch manager for our Dallas branch of Armored Motor Service, Inc. Both Goin and Ed Dietrich are employees classified as guards or drivers. Mr. Don Goin also has a title of assistant vault manager.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that all three of these gentlemen work under your authority?

Mr. FLEMING. In a broad sense, yes. However, just for the record, the city branches are to a very large extent autonomous.

Mr. HUBERT. Well then, who was in charge actually of the Dallas city branch here on November the 24th?

Mr. FLEMING. Mr. Hall is in charge of the Dallas city branch as such when it functions in that capacity. This particular thing was a rather unusual situation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Fleming, I think I have heretofore shown you a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you on June 26, 1964, by FBI Agent W. James Wood, which I have marked for the purpose of identification on the first page as follows, to wit: On the right-hand margin “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Harold Fleming,” under which I have signed my name. The document actually consists of five pages, and on the succeeding second, third, fourth, and fifth pages I have placed my initials on the lower right-hand corner, and also the fifth page only of five lines on it. I think you have had an opportunity, sir, to read this document now identified as Exhibit No. 1, is that a fact?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document is a fair and correct report of the interview had between you and FBI Agent Wood?

Mr. FLEMING. Substantially that portrays the interview with some very minor qualifications.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have indicated to me that there are some minor qualifications that you would like to note, and I turn now to page 2, the first full paragraph. I notice that you have made a small notation next to the sentence reading as follows: “Hall told me they were in possession of employees Donald Goin and Ed Dietrich.” Do you have any comment to make on that?

Mr. FLEMING. Just to state that the name of Donald Goin was not mentioned in the conversation I had with Mr. Hall. The name of Ed Dietrich was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the last sentence of that same paragraph, the sentence reading as follows: “Fleming said Donald Goin was telephonically contacted by Hall and given similar instructions.” Do you wish to comment on that?

Mr. FLEMING. I would say that I said Goin was apparently telephonically contacted.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don’t know?

Mr. FLEMING. I was not aware that Goin had been contacted at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I notice that on the first sentence of the last paragraph on page 2 you also had a mark indicating that you wished to comment upon it. I think your comment was with reference to a phrase there about a conference breaking up. What was the comment you had?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, it was actually a conversation that we had at the terminal. It was merely a matter of getting organized, and there was no time for conferring. It was just decided what we were going to do. That gives the inference that we may have had a long pow-wow. This was an instantaneous decision.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3 and I notice that in the second or middle paragraph of that page you have two lines, one I think with reference to the first sentence which begins with the words “Hall backed the truck ...” and ends with the words “... with the motor running.” Was that the sentence? My question is, what comment do you have to make with reference to that sentence?

Mr. FLEMING. It was not a question of being able to get the truck further into the driveway. It was the fact that had it gone down the ramp further, it would have been parked on an incline completely, and fearing that the truck could possibly stall, by reason of letting out the clutch too quickly. If we stalled, there might be a problem of getting the truck started again, because we had a small problem at the terminal in getting this truck to start initially. Just for the record, a new battery had been placed in that truck on Saturday and was one of these where the liquid has to be mixed up in the battery itself before it is fully charged, and it hadn’t been moved enough and would not fully charge. We were afraid the truck might stall on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty, in fact, in starting the truck when you left the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. At the terminal we had to use a jump booster to get it started there.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the same battery in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh, yes; and that is why we had the second truck with us also.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that, that the truck could have actually gone down further into the basement insofar as its clearance is concerned?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right; it could have gone in possibly 10 to 15 feet further.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a fact, though, that it could not have gone all the way down?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it could not, because of the pipes overhead at the lowest point of the basement.