Chapter XLV: Front Matter (45)

The interview was very brief. The thing that sticks most in my mind, considering the fact that before Oswald was brought down District Attorney Wade had stated in some detail how Oswald was taken before a justice of the peace and formally charged with the assassination of President Kennedy, that when the prisoner in the assembly room was asked, “Why did you kill the President?” He replied, “I haven’t killed anyone and no one has even mentioned to me anything about the President except you people.”

Mr. HUBERT. Who was it asked him the question, “Why did you kill the President?”

Mr. WALDO. Gosh, I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. It was some newsman?

Mr. WALDO. It was a newsman; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby in that group?

Mr. WALDO. I did not see Ruby that evening; no, sir. I do recall, but only because it was called to my attention afterward, that at the tail end of the interview, a man with a loud voice was calling to Wade to come over and say something in a microphone, and I do recall distinctly that this voice cut through the din with remarkable stentorian quality, and of course it has been testified at Jack Ruby’s trial that this was he, acting for a friend at a radio station who wanted to put a statement by Wade on tape for subsequent broadcast.

Mr. HUBERT. That was while Oswald was still in the room?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had left?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused the end of the Oswald interview?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall it, following what could have been anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes of questions, Chief Curry stepped forward and said, “That’s enough. Take him back.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any violation of his regulation about crowding and so forth?

Mr. WALDO. Not seriously. There was a little sort of press forward, but not seriously.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he indicate that that’s why he was ending the interview?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning finally to November 24, I think you’ve told us how you got down there, and your statement indicates that you were standing on the outside of the building at the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Along with a number of other newsmen, when a Lieutenant Butler invited the press people into the jail; is that correct?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; with one exception. There was not a number of other newsmen, there were only, as I recall, three of us standing out on that sidewalk at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a press identification on you then?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; and when Butler, and pardon me--let me put this in--the armored vehicle had by that time been backed into the ramp, and there was some comment among the three of us standing on the sidewalk, the curious fact that the vehicle which was too high to go down the ramp, was being left there, when a smaller armored vehicle had been brought at the same time and was parked by the curb. Lieutenant Butler stuck his head out around this vehicle and said, “Come on down.” There were two motorcycle policemen who were two of the same policemen who had been standing guard duty on the third floor. They had over the period from the 22d through the 23d, they had several shifts of them. They were two of the same, and as I approached one of them in this comparatively narrow space between the column that forms the frame of the ramp and the side of the vehicle where he was standing, he grinned at me and recognized me immediately and said, “How are you this morning? I know you, but I still have to ask you for your credentials.” So, I got out my credentials. I had the badge on, but beyond that he required my Department of Public Safety identification.

Mr. HUBERT. That was even after Lieutenant Butler invited you in?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been seeking to get in prior to that and had been denied?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It was just that you had arrived at that time?

Mr. WALDO. Well, we had arrived some time earlier and had seen the preparations. I had gone upstairs and checked Chief Curry’s office and had been told that it would be half to three-quarters of an hour yet before the prisoner would be removed. This was at the time that I arrived over there on Commerce Street from the hotel, and that everybody would be notified before there was any movement, so since it was a pleasant morning, we were standing out on the sidewalk--the three of us.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told it was going to be by elevator down into the basement and then through the basement ramps out Commerce Street?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that, sir?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall it, it was Lieutenant Butler himself, who was on the third floor at the time I went up, and I would like to for whatever it’s worth, add something at this point. Lieutenant Butler was since, oh, probably 2:30 on the afternoon of the 22d of November, the man whom I had sought out on every occasion that I wanted to learn something about developments, whenever I could find him, because he was a man of remarkable equanimity, poise, and very cooperative within the authorization that he had, and the first thing----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would give you more news than anybody else?

Mr. WALDO. He was more able to understand what was wanted and he was always in on, apparently, on high-level information, and if it was for release, he would be the one who would have it and be most willing apparently to give it. This is a thing that happens in circumstances like this. A reporter picks out a man, tries him out, and if he finds that he’s cooperative the first time, he tries to stick to him, because by that time the official recognizes his face.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that other officials were not so cooperative?

Mr. WALDO. I would say, yes, to that with reference to the 22d and part of the 23d. By Saturday afternoon, the 23d, everybody seemed to be pretty accessible and pretty willing to answer questions. What I wanted to say about Lieutenant Butler was that this almost stolid poise, or perhaps phlegmatic poise is a better word, that I had noticed all through even the most hectic times of the 22d and the 23d, appeared to have deserted him completely on the morning of the 24th. He was an extremely nervous man, so nervous that when I was standing asking him a question after I had entered the ramp and gotten down to the basement area, just moments before Oswald was brought down, he was standing profile to me and I noticed his lips trembling as he listened and waited for my answer. It was simply a physical characteristic. I had by then spent enough hours talking to this man so that it struck me as something totally out of character. Now, he may merely have had a bad night.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, had the movement of Oswald begun or was it known that he was coming?

Mr. WALDO. It was imminent at that time--it was imminent.

Mr. HUBERT. The words, “Here he comes”--those famous words--had not yet been uttered?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to the time Oswald was brought down did Butler invite you into the basement?

Mr. WALDO. I’d say the time lapse there was 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that the time was getting imminent and that you must come in?

Mr. WALDO. That we could come in, that we should come in.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you by way of indicating that the movement was about to take place?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall, when he stuck his head out and around the vehicle and looked to see who was there, he just said, “Come on down now.”

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say that it was imminent, but you construed it as such?

Mr. WALDO. Well, after we had passed the scrutiny at the ramp entrance and continued on down, I followed my custom and immediately sought him out and asked him, “Are they just about ready to move him?” and he said, “I understand he’ll be brought down shortly, you’ll have notice.” By the way, I recall one other minor discrepancy that exists in that report. At this particular time and thought we’re talking about now, I believe it even states in that report that when I entered the ramp, there were several police vehicles parked; is that in there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think it does say that.

Mr. WALDO. That is incorrect.

Mr. HUBERT. On page 3, the last paragraph says, “Waldo said he noticed in the ramp three police cars were parked in a straight line, one behind each other, facing toward Commerce Street.”

Mr. WALDO. Yes; that is some misunderstanding on the part of the gentleman who took the transcript. There was no vehicle in the ramp at the time that I entered except the armored vehicle which had been parked right at the mouth of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. And behind the armored vehicle, there were none when you went in?

Mr. WALDO. When I first went down. It was approximately 8 to 10 minutes after I had been down in the ramp area, and there were then a hundred or more representatives of news media in that area.

Behind us, and now let me see if I can get this straight--the ramp of course goes from north to south, from Main to Commerce, and for perhaps half its length, one quarter at each end, there is nothing but blank wall on each side of the ramp. For the other half, the middle half, and on the--don’t take this down and tell me the direction?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it’s pertinent we want it.

Mr. WALDO. Well, Main is north of Commerce--right?

Mr. HUBERT. It would be the east.

Mr. WALDO. Yes--but on the west side is the entrance to the building and the jail elevators and so on, and on the east side is a parking--a large submerged parking area, and it was 8 to 10 minutes after I had gotten downstairs when they began what appeared to be at first a quite confused movement--several detectives, plainclothes officers got into police cars parked down there and started to move them, with what appeared, and in fact I commented on this to a colleague, an unnecessary amount of jerking movement, lack of coordination so that one almost ran into the other and they were backing and filling and nobody could figure what they were doing with them, and meanwhile Butler, I believe it was, or someone was telling us all to get back out of the way, and finally they maneuvered these three cars into place one behind the other back of the armored vehicle.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time before the shooting did they back the armored car into the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Oh, that would have been--let’s see--I arrived over there about 9:30–10 or shortly thereafter it was that the car was brought in.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you went in at Butler’s suggestion or invitation about 25 minutes prior to the shooting?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And then the cars were moved in behind the armored car about 10 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a car go out the Main Street entrance around that time?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not. It could have happened and I didn’t see it, but I certainly didn’t.

Come to think of it, I don’t believe it could have happened without my seeing it, considering the physical setup over there, however, that’s not important.

Might I add that at the time that I entered the ramp area, the crowd of people standing along the south side of Commerce Street had grown to about 200. It was maybe 100 when I first arrived there, and this I took to be due to the fact that there appeared to be, from what I heard and cars passing stopped for traffic lights that had their radios on, broadcast announcements every few minutes that Oswald was going to be moved soon.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if all those people had been moved over to the opposite side of Commerce Street by the police?

Mr. WALDO. I cannot testify to that. They were all on the opposite side when I arrived there.

Mr. HUBERT. You arrived about 9:30, you say?

Mr. WALDO. About 9:30; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And of course you went upstairs and so forth in the interval before you went down into the basement?

Mr. WALDO. Yes; but I was not upstairs a matter of more than 10 to 15 minutes before I returned to the same.

Mr. HUBERT. And during the period between 9:30 and approximately 11 or shortly before 11, when you went down into the ramp and excepting the time when you were upstairs, which you say was very slight, you were in the area of the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby in that area at anytime?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice a large TV--the vans and equipment they used?

Mr. WALDO. Oh, yes; they had been there permanently, I’d say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby or anyone who looked like him hanging around those vans around 10 o’clock or at anytime?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s all I have to ask, Mr. Waldo. Is there anything you want to add further, sir?

Mr. WALDO. No; I would simply offer you this, if it’s of any interest.

Johnson and I within the week after the events of November 22–24, feeling that it might be of interest, sat down and collaborated on a manuscript which we called, “The Dallas Murders,” which was sent to my agent in New York for possible placement. It did not get placed, apparently, because as she informed me of the announcement before she could get it to anyone that the Associated Press and the United Press were going to come out with these books.

I have a copy of that with me, and if it would be of any interest, I would be personally happy to have the Commission have it.

Mr. HUBERT. I do not know if they wish it, but suppose that we note it, and of course it has been noted by the mere fact that you stated it, with the understanding that if it is desired, the general counsel of the Commission or the Commission itself could write to you, I suppose, and you would be willing to send it on. It’s a manuscript, as I understand it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you. I don’t think you and I have met before today?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think we’ve had any conversation since we’ve met that has not been recorded, do you agree with that?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed.

Mr. WALDO. All right.

TESTIMONY OF CLYDE FRANKLIN GOODSON

The testimony of Clyde Franklin Goodson was taken at 2:45 p.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Clyde F. Goodson. Mr. Goodson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Goodson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Goodson, I think you have appeared today by virtue of the general request addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, asking that he make available for deposition certain officers of the police force, is that correct?

Mr. GOODSON. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition. In this case, of course you have not had that 3-day notice.

But the rules also provide that any witness may waive the notice and proceed to testify without the notice, and I ask you now since you have not received the written notice, whether you are willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify now?

Mr. GOODSON. I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GOODSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.

Mr. GOODSON. Clyde Franklin Goodson.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?

Mr. GOODSON. 6529 Oleta Dr.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. GOODSON. A policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. GOODSON. About 7½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. GOODSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goodson, I have just a moment ago handed to you a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain, dated June 18, 1964, consisting of one page, which I have marked for the purpose of identification on the right-hand margin as follows:

“Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Clyde F. Goodson,” under which I have written my name.

Have you read this document, sir?

Mr. GOODSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that correctly state the entire contents of the interview and the substance of the interview?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are the facts stated therein, so far as you remember, correct?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Jack Ruby prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. GOODSON. I would say the first time I saw him was approximately 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet him?

Mr. GOODSON. The district that I worked for about 6 years was in the downtown area, and on the edge of the South Dallas area, and by answering calls in that vicinity and routine checks of his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the Vegas Club?

Mr. GOODSON. The Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him in connection with the Vegas or at the Vegas Club?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any social meetings?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say then that the only time you saw him during the past 5 years, which is from the time you first met him, was in connection with some official police business?

Mr. GOODSON. It was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times during those last 5 years do you suppose you have seen Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Oh, I guess just an estimate, six or seven times.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the last time prior to November 22, 1963, that you saw him, do you suppose?

Mr. GOODSON. I would say about 3 months before; 2 or 3 months before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the occasion?

Mr. GOODSON. Not specifically. I remember 2 or 3 months before then, my partner and I--I don’t recall who I was working with at that time--answered a call there on Commerce Street at one of the bars, who was supposed to be drunk and causing a disturbance. They said he left and went next door, which was another small bar, and we went there, and the people said he had been there, but had just left out. So the Carousel was the next place, and we walked in and checked it.

Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for a drunk?

Mr. GOODSON. We were looking for a drunk.

Mr. HUBERT. That had been reported causing a disturbance?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went into the Carousel finally?

Mr. GOODSON. We went into the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby then?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes; he was up there, and I just talked to him for a few minutes, the most I have ever talked to him, and then we left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know your name?

Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew his name?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him when I saw him; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him by name, or merely by sight?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him by name and by sight. I knew who he was when I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than the five or six times during the last 5 years that you did see him on official duty, did you see him anytime unofficially in the sense of just walking down the street or passing him or saying hello, or passing the time of day, or something like that?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not go to his club on a social basis?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were on duty at the entrance of the homicide bureau on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department building starting at 5:30 p.m., is that correct?

Mr. GOODSON. Approximately 5:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come on duty at that time?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I had been on duty all day.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been up on the third floor prior to 5:30?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Where had you been?

Mr. GOODSON. I was working my regular district during the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. GOODSON. It was district No. 103. Starts on the edge of the downtown area and goes south on Corinth Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to 5:30 on November 22 you had no occasion to be in the headquarters building at all?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were called in to perform some duty there?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that duty?

Mr. GOODSON. They assigned me to work at the door there in the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Who assigned you?

Mr. GOODSON. Sergeant Richardson.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. GOODSON. Richardson.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir. He told me that I was to stand at the door and to let no one in except police officers that were investigating the case, and FBI, and Secret Service.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you were to stand there, what did they mean?

Mr. GOODSON. I stood directly in front of the door.

Mr. HUBERT. What door?

Mr. GOODSON. To the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone else with you?

Mr. GOODSON. The officers up and down the hallway, but I don’t recall anyone standing right there at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. No one was put in a stationary position such as you were?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. GOODSON. I stayed there, oh, to about 7:30 or so; around 7:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you fix the time that you began that duty at 5:30?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, my regular assignment ended at 3:30, and it was about 4 o’clock before I got over to the city hall, and I was told to report to the detail room where I stayed some 40 minutes, I would say, and then I was assigned up there on the door to the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you fix the time when you left that detail at 7:30?

Mr. GOODSON. It was just as I recall, it was around 7:30. No specific reason to say that it was exactly 7:30. I don’t recall looking at the exact time. We had to check off what time we left.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to leave by anyone?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was relieved by another officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you were allowed to go home?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did so?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you see Jack Ruby on the third floor of the Dallas City Jail during the period 5:30 to 7:30 when you were standing guard before the homicide bureau door?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you have mentioned that you, about 6 p.m., saw a man that you thought resembled Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t say he resembled Jack Ruby. I said that possibly someone would mistake him for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that that was about 6 o’clock?

Mr. GOODSON. Approximately. Just estimating from the time I had been there until the time this person came up.

Mr. HUBERT. Now this person that you referred to is the one I think you say that fitted the description of Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. He resembled him some, as far as age and height and so forth.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do when he came up?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, when he came up there, he was about two-thirds drunk, and he was kind of loud, and he came over to the door and was as though he was going to walk in, and I asked him who he was, and he began asking me what had happened and what was going on and what was being done so far as what had happened, and he said that he wanted inside, and I asked him who he was, and he said he was with a newspaperman from the White House press, and he never did show me any identification.

Mr. HUBERT. He did show you?

Mr. GOODSON. He did not. I told him that he would have to wait in the hallway with the other news people.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you aware that they were checking the people on the third floor for identification as news people?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t know whether they were or not. They had some officers assigned there at the elevator and the stairway. I don’t know what their job was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call attention to anyone that this man you have just described had attempted to get into the office, and that he was in what you considered to be a drunken condition, or semidrunken condition?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he just go away then?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, he stood around there for quite awhile talking to the other newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he passing out cards or anything of that sort?

Mr. GOODSON. Not that I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you remember?

Mr. GOODSON. He had on a suit and dark-colored----

Mr. HUBERT. Hat?

Mr. GOODSON. No; he didn’t have on a hat. Wore glasses. His hair was dark, but it had a lot of gray around the temples, around the edge of his hairline.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you are positive that that man was not Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. This person was not Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him that you thought made him fit the description of Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. He was approximately the same age and same height and built the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. Same hair?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I don’t believe Ruby would have as much gray in his hair as he had.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty any day after the 22d?

Mr. GOODSON. Was I on duty, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. At the city hall, at the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GOODSON. On the door up there of the homicide bureau?

Mr. HUBERT. Or any place?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was. That was on a Saturday, I believe. I was off Sunday and Monday, and I came back the next Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, the days where you were posted at the door before homicide bureau, was that on the 22d or 23d?

Mr. GOODSON. It was on the 22d.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the 23d were you on duty that Saturday?

Mr. GOODSON. I was off Sunday and Monday. That was on a Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOODSON. I was on duty then.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty? At headquarters?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I was working my regular district.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby during any time on the 22d, 23d, or 24th?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Detective Sandy Standifer?

Mr. GOODSON. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to anyone that you had seen a man that fit the description of Jack Ruby, as you have stated, at the time and place that you have stated? But that he was not Jack Ruby? Other than the statement to the FBI?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard that there are reports that Jack Ruby did attempt to get into the homicide office?

Mr. GOODSON. Just rumors is all I have heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any report to anyone concerning your seeing this man who fit the description of Jack Ruby, but it was not he?

Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he fit the description of him close enough that anyone that knew him or had seen him before--I don’t believe he fit the description close enough to assume that that was him.

That is the only person I could think of that would even come close to resembling him, would be up there that I saw there.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, that anyone that knew Jack Ruby at all would know immediately that this man was not Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all. Can you think of anything that we have discussed off the record? I don’t believe there have been any off-the-record discussion that has not been made a part of this deposition.

Mr. GOODSON. No; not that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much for coming down.

TESTIMONY OF RONALD LEE JENKINS

The testimony of Ronald Lee Jenkins was taken at 1 p.m. on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins. Mr. Jenkins, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Jenkins, the matter of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Jenkins, you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to appear before me to take your deposition, is that correct?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you received that letter, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. The latter part of last week. I don’t know which day, exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been Friday, or earlier?

Mr. JENKINS. I believe earlier. I believe it was July 10 or earlier.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JENKINS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. JENKINS. Ronald Lee Jenkins.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. JENKINS. 1048 South Bryan, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. Twenty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. JENKINS. A news editor for KBOX Radio, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been connected with that station for very long?

Mr. JENKINS. I have been connected with KBOX since the 1st of August of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. JENKINS. I was news director at KAYC at Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that organization?

Mr. JENKINS. Fourteen months.

Mr. HUBERT. Then prior to that, what was your occupation?

Mr. JENKINS. Three and a half years, U.S. Army News Corps to the American Forces Network.

Mr. HUBERT. Honorable discharge?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jenkins, I have previously handed you, and I think you have read a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by Special FBI Agents Edmond Hardin and Robert J. Wilkinson on December 10, 1963, the document consisting of three pages.

For the purpose of identification, I have marked the first page as follows, to wit: In the right-hand margin, “Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins,” under which I have signed my name, and I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages.

Now I ask you again whether or not you have had an opportunity to read this document, Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. JENKINS. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document represents a fair statement and correct statement of the interview and of the facts stated therein?

Mr. JENKINS. Except for the first paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. I noticed you made a little mark as to the third paragraph on page 1.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In which reference is made to your participation in the coverage of the President Kennedy tour with a certain David King of UPI, Dallas. I think it is as to that that you wish to address yourself?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What have you to say about that?

Mr. JENKINS. I have not associated, nor did I know David King or anyone by that name. In fact, I still don’t. At that time we did have a new editor by the name of Karl King, and he was our anchor man. He was the new man on the air at the time the assassination occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he with UPI?

Mr. JENKINS. Following the assassination, he was relieved from KBOX and subsequently he went to work part time with UPI as an audio man. He is now employed as a newsman with WBAP Television in Fort Worth. This is the only Mr. King that I have had any close dealings with at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now other than that correction in Exhibit No. 1, have you any other corrections to make?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. About any part of it?

Mr. JENKINS. No corrections.

Mr. HUBERT. I do know, however, that on page 3 in the third paragraph apparently on the original, the name Robert Thompson has been scratched and the name James Robert Thornton has been written above that.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is the name James Robert Thornton correct?

Mr. JENKINS. I do not know the man’s real name. I only know him by the name of Bob Thornton, and he is with FAA Radio, and I believe television too.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, it was not Robert Thompson?

Mr. JENKINS. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you state in Exhibit No. 1 that you saw Jack Ruby, I believe, on November 22 on the third floor of the Dallas police station between the hours of 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. Did you know Ruby prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at all?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his existence?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now apparently later you identified Ruby as a man that you had seen on the third floor on November 22, and I ask you now how you identified the man that you saw on the 22d as Jack Ruby whom you did not know on the 22d?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think I ever have said that I saw him for sure and could identify him for sure. It was strictly by recall. I was able to see him in person, I believe it was, on the afternoon of the Oswald shooting. I think that was the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him then?

Mr. JENKINS. Just outside Capt. Will Fritz’ office in the Dallas Police Department. He was being brought down from, I would suppose, the city jail, brought down the corridor past the gathering of newsmen, and I was one of the few who managed to just have been standing outside of Captain Fritz’ office door, and he passed within a few feet of me. He was very familiar, and the face was familiar, and it just seemed to me that I had seen the man on the Friday night previous. This was the first thing that struck me when I did see him, because I had not seen him following the Oswald shooting up until that moment.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact that immediately upon seeing him under the circumstances and the time and conditions that you stated, that you had the mental reaction that you had seen this man before?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time associate him with the man you had seen on the 22d?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Immediately?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was a matter of a few minutes. I was trying to think where I had seen him before, and then it occurred to me that I had seen him in the hallway near the elevator shaft of the third floor on the evening of the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said also that you saw him later that Friday night at the time in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you were in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you did see a man whom you now think was Jack Ruby in that room?

Mr. JENKINS. I am quite sure it seemed to me it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him on the 24th under the conditions that you stated and after reflection, did you also think that the Jack Ruby you saw on the 24th was also the man you had seen in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. I was more sure than I was not that this was the same man, but again, I had not seen him before, and this was strictly by recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to probe your intellectual processes on the 24th, and as I gather it, on the 24th when you first saw him, your intellectual processes were that “I have seen this man,” and then upon searching your memory, you related it to the man you had seen on two different occasions on Friday, the 22d? That is to say, in the hall in the early part of the afternoon, and then later in the assembly room, is that correct?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the man you saw earlier in the evening on the third floor was the same man that you saw in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that Jack Ruby was that man on both occasions?

Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. It might have been?

Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed on the first occasion that you saw him? That is to say, the early part of the afternoon and evening?

Mr. JENKINS. The only thing that I can recall is that the man had on what could have been an overcoat or a topcoat. It was a long coat of some sort. It seemed it might have been of a brown or lighter brown or dark gray color, and it was definitely an overcoat. It seemed to be some sort of trench coat, or not a long coat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. JENKINS. No hat.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his hair looked like?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he slightly bald?

Mr. JENKINS. I really don’t remember, except it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. Slightly bald?

Mr. JENKINS. I can’t even positively recall at this moment whether I noticed whether it was slightly bald or not. I have had too many occasions to see Mr. Ruby since that time, and of course now implication of many pictures is entering in, so I can’t honestly say that I can recall exactly what he did look like that evening. But the facial features are the same.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you did see Ruby again after the 24th?

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that that was in the court?

Mr. JENKINS. In the trial, and in the hearing. Of course pictures in the paper many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it still your belief then from the other opportunities you had to see Ruby, that the man you saw on the two occasions on the 22d was Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in regard to the first occasion, you stated in the document which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, that you thought you saw him between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. on the third floor of the Dallas City Jail. Can you tell us why you fix those times?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, at 5:30 I had made a report, a telephone report to the station on what was going on at the police station. I had arrived somewhere around 4 o’clock, and a local colleague was already there. I arrived with Jerry Gunkle, who was ordinarily an announcer, but he was filling in as a newsman because of the situation that afternoon. About 5:30 I made a report and asked what time it was, and was told it was 5:30, and the next time that I can recall realizing what time it was, was 7:30 in the evening, due to interviewing people, talking to police officers, trying to get stories, and trying to feed them either to the station or to my control hopper down there.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix this 7:30 hour?

Mr. JENKINS. The same reason. I called the station again and checked what time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now then, you think it was between those two time checks that you saw Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. I would not state it as a fact. I believe it was. I am not positive that it was between those two times, but those are the times that I do recall for that particular afternoon and evening.

Mr. HUBERT. You first went down at 4 o’clock?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So it could not have been earlier than 4?

Mr. JENKINS. No; it could not have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave the third floor? When did you leave the third floor?

Mr. JENKINS. I can’t give you an exact time. My reason for leaving the third floor was to go down to the basement assembly room to view Oswald. I believe it was after midnight, if I am not mistaken; it was after midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the third floor at any time during the period between 4 p.m. until you went down to the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I would ask you why it is that you have stated that you think it is between 5:30 and 7:30 that you saw Ruby there?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was earlier in the evening, I am quite sure of that, because I know I spent quite a few hours after 7:30 mainly in the auto theft department, which is just outside the pressroom, and in the pressroom itself. I was talking to officers there. I was doing some phone calling from in there. Most of the pressroom phones were busy all evening long, and I have some friends in the auto theft department. I don’t know them by name exactly, but I have had contact with them, and it turned out this became my best source of information as a newsman was just to more or less stay in there and make interoffice calls from time to time on their telephone. I found out I could find out more that way because there wasn’t a lot of commotion. It was close to Chief Curry’s office and the homicide office.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, there was quite a crowd on the third floor, as I understand?

Mr. JENKINS. It was packed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what Ruby was doing when you saw him?

Mr. JENKINS. The only thing I can recall is, he was talking to somebody. I would suppose a newsman, I don’t know. I don’t know who he was talking to.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that directed your attention to him particularly?

Mr. JENKINS. Only that there were very few people around the elevator shaft. Most of them were gathered around the cameras that were set up right in the intersection, and then slightly past as you get off of the elevator, and most of the newsmen were just lined two and three deep down the hallway back toward the homicide department as you go left coming off the elevator, and also were gathered around the cameras there talking, and at that moment I was going by. There were only two people, this man who I believe to be Ruby, and another man, a taller man, and I can’t really describe what he looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in uniform or civilian clothes?

Mr. JENKINS. No; in civilian clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the other man.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; seems to me a dark suit, but everybody was wearing dark suits.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know who that was?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How close to the elevator shaft was Ruby and the other man?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, they were along the wall near, I believe, the women’s restroom, about halfway from the elevator door to the corridor, to the cross corridor I mean. I would say probably about 7 feet, maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any policeman at that time guarding or checking identification at the elevator door or at the staircase?

Mr. JENKINS. No; not to my recollection. Of course I didn’t go down.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean when you saw Ruby talking to this other man or the man you believe to be talking to the other man, were there also policemen there?

Mr. JENKINS. Not in that immediate vicinity. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only time you saw him at the early part of the afternoon?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that’s right. At the moment, I was on the way down to the snackbar to get a cup of coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that help you fix the time?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think so; not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any supper that night?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did. I had a hamburger. I had a cold one. It was left over from somewhere. Quite a few had been brought up, I think, and I was with Lieutenant May of the auto theft department, and he offered me a hamburger. This was considerably later. I would say probably 10 or 11 o’clock, I don’t know. And he offered me a hamburger, and it was left over, and I took it.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the snackbar?

Mr. JENKINS. It is as you go up into the third floor, go toward the Chief’s office and the dispatch office.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to leave the floor?

Mr. JENKINS. No; in fact, it was right beside that intersection which I have been telling you about.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came back from getting the coffee, did you observe Ruby there?

Mr. JENKINS. I didn’t look. I went straight back through. I was going back to talk to my colleagues to see if there was anything else they found out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you had more than one cup of coffee that day?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; considerably more than one cup.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it dark when you saw him, do you know? Dark outside?

Mr. JENKINS. I couldn’t say. There was not a window in the area. I could not tie that in with any part of the observation.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s get at it this way. You came on at 4 o’clock?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have fixed the earliest time apparently that you could have seen him at 5:30, and the latest at 7:30, which seems that you saw him not sooner than an hour and a half after you came on, and not later than 3½ hours after you came on. Using these relative time measures, does that assist you in fixing the time? For example, would you be willing to state that you did not see Ruby sooner than an hour and a half after you came on duty?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think definitely I would state that, because for about the first hour and a half, perhaps even 2 hours, I stayed primarily in the pressroom. I was doing the main part of phone reports to the station, because we had a phone and were trying to keep it, and also we were trying to keep a running account of what was happening. This is strictly now an estimate of time. As I say, I only recall asking the time twice, and I don’t ever recall looking at the clock or at my watch until about the time we were ready to go home. It seems like it was 1:15 or 1:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You say when you went to get the coffee it was after you had made the 5:30 check of time?

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. How much after?

Mr. JENKINS. That would be next to impossible to say. It could have been half an hour or 45 minutes, perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been as long as 2 hours afterward, which would have fixed the time of seeing Ruby at 7:30?

Mr. JENKINS. Could have been; yes. I think it was before the 7:30 time, because it just seems like it was, as I remember, before the 7:30 check.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was sooner than 3½ hours after you came on duty?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I would say that is a safe estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. So that really, the best you can do for us in between 5:30 and 7:30, but you feel fairly certain that those limits at least are accurate?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that Ruby was not carrying anything when you saw him at the first occasion; right?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t recall him carrying anything at all. I don’t remember anything in his hands, as a matter of fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Later that day you went to the press conference, whatever time that was?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were in the assembly room, did you see Jack Ruby in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly room, did you have the mental impression that you had seen that man earlier that day?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.