Chapter XIII: Front Matter (13)

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice in that same paragraph, which is the third or middle paragraph, you have made a little mark next to a sentence reading as follows: “He was not part of the Oswald guard force, but was merely on duty to prevent unauthorized persons from entering and leaving the garage.” Do you have a comment to make with reference to that?

Mr. FLEMING. My comment is that I was not aware of what force this officer belonged, and I am not in position to state whether he was part of the Oswald guard force. I do know that he was on the outside of the building at the entrance of the drive. This inferred that I assumed he was not part of the guard force.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. FLEMING. He was in uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his position relative to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was on the passenger’s side of the truck facing, with the truck facing Commerce Street, that was parked in the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in front of the truck, or by the side of the cab, or where was he with reference to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was at the side of the truck, opposite or near the cab door. But he was stationed there at the time we drove the truck in.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when you backed the truck in, that policeman was there, but you did not see him there thereafter?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh yes; he was there the whole time.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there the entire time?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He would have been rather close then to Mr. Hall sitting in the cab?

Mr. FLEMING. He was not sitting in the cab. He was standing on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. No; the policeman was standing on the outside?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But I say, that policeman would have been rather close to Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. No. Mr. Hall was on the driver’s side of the cab rather.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, this was the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You observed he was there from the moment you all arrived until after the shooting?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the truck and the wall on the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side, there was not enough space for anyone to get through into the building, because as I got out of the passenger’s side, I had to go around to the driver’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. On the driver’s side, how much room?

Mr. FLEMING. There was room for a person to walk between the wall and the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we better put those dimensions in terms of feet. Take the passenger’s side first.

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate on the passenger’s side the clearance was less than 6 inches. On the driver’s side, I would estimate it to be around 2 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the width of the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. Not offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Returning for the moment to the document which has been marked Exhibit No. 1, I take it then that other than the corrections that you made, that this document represents a fair statement of the interview and represents therefore the truth, so far as you know it?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I would like, if possible, for you to tell us how you fix the time of the call received by you from Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, I was in the process of shaving in order to go to church at 10 o’clock. My wife answered the telephone, and I had to come to the phone with lather on my face. And by reason of the timing, it was between 9:30 and 9:40.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I had met Chief Batchelor within 30 days of this date.

Mr. HUBERT. Socially or----

Mr. FLEMING. No. I went to see Chief Batchelor on official business in that at the time we had been apprised of a city ordinance concerning the licensing of our people in Dallas. The company had operated in Dallas since 1928 without a permit to carry firearms, and being aware of that statute, I made an inquiry to determine if we had to be so licensed. And having determined that we did, we then had the wheels in motion to process our company’s license, and I conferred with Chief Batchelor in an effort to clarify insurance and bond problems.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate 3 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was of course concerning the availability of your armored trucks?

Mr. FLEMING. Chief Batchelor asked if I had been the person, or rather if I were the person who had contacted him with reference to Armored Motor Service, and I stated I had. And he said, “We would like to borrow a truck from you people for the purpose of transporting this prisoner.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that the truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that the truck, we would be very happy to oblige, but that it would take me sometime to make it available, because I had the problem of determining who had keys and how we could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him how long it would be before the truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave the matter then with him on that occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that I would get started immediately to locate the people who had the keys, and parenthetically I might explain that for security reasons the same person doesn’t have the keys all the time. And I think neither the manager nor the assistant manager had it. In other words, to save time, I told Chief Batchelor we had several sizes of trucks, and asked that he take the measurements of the door and have them ready so that I could call him when I arrived at the terminal, to determine what size truck we should bring to transport the prisoner. And I told him I would call him as soon as I learned how soon we could be there.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?

Mr. FLEMING. I then attempted to call Mr. Hall by telephone, and Mr. Paul Leonard, who is our operations manager for Dallas, by telephone. Neither was in. Then I called Mr. Tom Mastin, Jr., president of Armored Motor Service in Fort Worth, explained the commitment that I had made, and asked if he had any suggestion as to whom I might call to find out who had the keys. He suggested that Mr. Tom James, who is vice president of Armored Motor Service in semiretirement, lived next door to the church that Mr. Hall and Mr. James attended, and suggested that I call Mr. James to get Mr. Hall personally and proceed from there, which I subsequently did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Mr. James and ask him to go over and get Mr. Hall from the church?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; and he had Mr. Hall call me from the church.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall about how long after that Mr. Hall called you in fact?

Mr. FLEMING. It would have been within 5 minutes of my call to Mr. James.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you tell Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I asked if he knew where the keys were, and he said he did not know. He thought Mr. Ed Dietrich had one set, and he would try to make some calls to find out where the other set was. I suggested that rather he give me Dietrich’s telephone number, and I suggested that I would call Mr. Dietrich, and for him to get on the phone and try to locate the other keys so that we could find somebody and move quickly.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of the time of your conversation with Mr. Hall relative to the time that you first spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate between 8 and 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. After I finished talking with Mr. Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then call anyone else?

Mr. FLEMING. I called Mr. Dietrich. He was not in. I left a message for him to call me as soon as he got into his house.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call?

Mr. FLEMING. He called me again within about 5 minutes, and I asked him to come directly. Asked him if he had keys, and he said, “Yes,” and asked him to come directly to the Armored Motor Service terminal and meet me there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he had already received a call from Mr. Hall to the same effect?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not. We didn’t discuss it. I assumed that he had not.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying that he did.

Mr. FLEMING. He may have received a call after. I think Mr. Hall had called the home, though, because he did indicate that he was not home.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it you finished dressing and went about the accomplishment of the job?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time then did you get to the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. I frankly can’t state what time I got there, because in the haste I forgot my wrist watch and did not know. Judging from the route I took, however, I would estimate it took me at least 20 to 25 minutes to reach there from my house. That could put it 10:25 to 10:30, and this is strictly an estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you had made the several calls that you have talked about, it took you, I gather, another 15 to 20 minutes to finish dressing?

Mr. FLEMING. No. I finished shaving in the meantime, and was gone as soon as I got the call from Mr. Dietrich. It was a matter of 2 or 3 minutes before I left the house.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the terminal, was anyone there?

Mr. FLEMING. When I got to the terminal, Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin and Mr. Dietrich all three were there.

Mr. HUBERT. Just relate in narrative form, if you wish, what happened from the time you got there, on forward, if possible, giving us time intervals, because one of the purposes of this deposition is to fix the time.

Mr. FLEMING. Let me just meditate a minute. When I arrived, they were preparing to take a small truck on the mission, because Mr. Dietrich said that he had been in the basement of the city hall before and knew that even a small truck would not clear the overhead pipes in the basement. Based on that, Mr. Hall apparently had made a decision that we would take the small truck rather than the large one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was it Mr. Goin, you say, or Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I said Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall didn’t indicate to you that he had been to the jail on that morning, but on some previous occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it was Mr. Dietrich in an armored truck. We serviced the city hall and numerous places.

Mr. HUBERT. But it wasn’t on this day? It was on a different occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; at a time previous.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then.

Mr. FLEMING. But I indicated that the small truck would not be satisfactory, having had a little experience in police work. I said we need the large truck, and suggested they look it over, clean it out, get bottles out of it, and so on. They indicated it would not start, and I suggested that we attempt to start it. Mr. Goin then got a battery and he and I, mostly he, got the thing connected, and we started the motor. In the meantime, I called Chief Batchelor and told him that we were at the terminal and we would be down shortly, and I used that term, because we had not yet got the truck started. I explained that there was no need to give me the dimensions because our truck would not go all the way down the ramp anyhow, but we would bring a large truck that would accommodate a larger force and would be down within, I said within 10 to 15 minutes, this would have taken.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor indicate to you at that time which truck would be used?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not indicate to me. We were telling him what facilities we had.

Mr. HUBERT. You did in fact take both of them ultimately?

Mr. FLEMING. We took both trucks, because as I said, after we had difficulty starting this one, we were afraid that the large truck might for some reason stall, and we wanted a standby truck in the event that should happen. I would estimate that we were at the terminal from 10 to 15 minutes prior to departing for the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you departed, what route did you take from the terminal to the city hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t tell you verbatim without referring to what was stated there.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it stated in there?

Mr. FLEMING. It is stated there, and we went over that on the map. That is the accurate route.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1 of your deposition, the first paragraph in which the exact route is stated?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were riding, I think, in the passenger’s seat with Mr. Hall driving?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you notice whether there was a shotgun in the usual bracket for that purpose in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; there was no shotgun.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no shotgun?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You would have seen it had it been there, because you were seated in the passenger’s seat where it would normally be, next to where it would be?

Mr. FLEMING. There were no guns in the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the Commerce Street entrance, what did you do?

Mr. FLEMING. The truck was backed into----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get out?

Mr. FLEMING. Not until the truck was backed into the spot where it was, where it stopped. I then got out of the passenger’s side, walked around the front, and went into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said it was on that occasion that you noticed that it was impossible for you to go down between the truck and the Harwood Street side of the ramp wall?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. Because there simply wasn’t enough space?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had to go around in front of the truck and down the driver’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you meet there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know who challenged me, but somebody in plain clothes asked me who I was, and I told him, and within a matter of seconds, Chief Batchelor and I met. I don’t know whether this gentleman took me to him, or he was there waiting for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, before we go on from there, would you care to estimate the time of arrival in front of the building and before you started to back in?

Mr. FLEMING. As I stated, I have no idea what the time was. It took us; it wouldn’t have taken us more than 5 minutes to get from the terminal to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no traffic problem?

Mr. FLEMING. No traffic problems at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Goin and Dietrich were in the other car?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did they park?

Mr. FLEMING. They parked initially on the south side of Commerce Street facing east diagonally from the entrance, diagonally to the left from the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do between the time that you first arrived until the firing of the shot? Perhaps I should ask you first, did you hear the shot?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I heard the shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Then from the time you arrived until you heard the shot, would you tell us what you did?

Mr. FLEMING. After I met Chief Batchelor, we both got into the back end of the truck, and Chief lifted the mattresses from the bunks and inspected the rear and asked about a mechanism we had there which was a hydrovac brake, and I explained to him that was a brake for the back end so that the men from the rear could control the brake system of the car in the event of a holdup, and he commented, “We don’t want him to sit over here, and we will put him on the other side.” I had the keys and I couldn’t unlock the door to what we call the money compartment or the center compartment of the truck. I have been speaking previously of the rear compartment where the men stay.

I then left Chief Batchelor and went around to the outside, opened the door to the center compartment, and then opened the door from the center compartment to the rear from that side so that it could be opened in the event that they wished to have a guard force in the center compartment of the car. I then went to the street and talked to Mr. Goin and explained that I thought that their car possibly should go first, not having had any instructions from anybody, and sort of watch the police car and determine where to go. I went back inside, again went in the truck for some reason, I don’t know, and again came to the outside. At that point there was a squad car in front of our parked armored truck, and I asked the officer if his was going to be the lead car, and he said, “So far as I know; yes.” Well, I was going to ask this other armored car to go ahead, so I then went to Mr. Goin and suggested that he follow the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goin was at that time seated or standing by the smaller truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was standing by his truck. From that point, I don’t know why, I went over to the front of our truck toward the passenger’s side, and it was at that point that I heard the noise that sounded like a cap pistol.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first noticed the police car in front of the truck in the street, was it just coming up, or was it already in place?

Mr. FLEMING. It was parked in front of our armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing in front of your armored truck?

Mr. FLEMING. I was standing over on the passenger’s side of the armored truck after I had talked with Goin about his relative position to our truck once we started to move.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was thinking about is, that prior to talking to Goin, you had seen the police car parking, you said, that you spoke to the driver?

Mr. FLEMING. I came out. When I came out, the car was parked in front of our truck, and I asked the officer driving if he was going to be the lead car.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you walked from across the sidewalk to the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No, no. The police car was backed into the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Parked in the driveway and headed out?

Mr. FLEMING. The back end of the car was up against the front bumper of our truck, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. So you simply walked to the driver’s seat and asked him what he was going to do, and he told you what he said?

Mr. FLEMING. Then I crossed the street diagonally to talk to Goin, who was standing on the outside of his car.

Mr. HUBERT. How far was Goin from you when you were standing talking to the officer?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, the width of the street. Place it diagonal, and he would be about three car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the car was on the other side of the street?

Mr. FLEMING. About three car lengths forward of our position, so it would be the width of the street, plus whatever it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. FLEMING. I walked back.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during all the time that you were at the Dallas police jail, from the moment when you first arrived, did you see anyone going down the driver’s side of the space between the armored car and the wall?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you in a position to say that had anyone walked down that space, you would have seen him?

Mr. FLEMING. Most likely. There were no people at all on that side of the street, save one colored lady at one point, and I don’t know whether this was before or after the shooting, but everyone else was on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, since that time seen pictures of him, I suppose?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Movies perhaps, or television?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you saw Jack Ruby or any person resembling him at any time around there on that date?

Mr. FLEMING. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on that morning, or does your memory serve you now in that regard as to whether there was one or more TV mobile unit vans parked on the same side of Commerce Street as you were, but in the Harwood Street direction?

Mr. FLEMING. As I recall, I observed one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people walk up to that car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not. After I heard the shot, an individual came up to me and asked me what happened. And I don’t know, he was a little excited, and I was not in position to know, and subsequently I went inside. He could have been from the mobile TV group, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give some sort of description of that individual?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police guard or guards in the space or protecting the space in any way between the driver’s side of the armored car and the wall?

Mr. FLEMING. Not on the outside of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. There was some on the inside?

Mr. FLEMING. When I went in, someone challenged me as to my identity.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that person stayed there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know. I just know when I went in three times, I was questioned.

Mr. HUBERT. You have mentioned that you went in and out a couple or three times, and you now state to me that each time you went in or out, you were questioned?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I was challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. That were on the driver’s side of the van?

Mr. FLEMING. On the inside of the quarters. Not on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same person that challenged you each time?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did the challenge consist of?

Mr. FLEMING. “Who are you? What do you want?” And I merely explained that I was with the armored car. Of course the officer, whoever was there, had seen me visiting with Chief Batchelor, and they knew as soon as I mentioned that as to my identity, I presume.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I believe that is all. Do you have anything else you want to say that you think is either pertinent or of interest to the general inquiry?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I am sure we have not met before today?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. We did have a short conversation off the record prior to beginning the recordation of your testimony, but I ask you if it is not a fact that everything that was discussed off the record was subsequently discussed on the record?

Mr. FLEMING. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DON EDWARD GOIN

The testimony of Don Edward Goin was taken at 7:10 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Donald Goin.

Mr. GOIN. Don E. Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Don? It is not Donald?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Don E. Goin [spelling] G-o-i-n.

Mr. Goin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Goin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Goin, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission. You received such notice?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. GOIN. I received it Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 9th?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have it in your hand there?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear a stamp that indicates the date?

Mr. GOIN. Mailed the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. From Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand and raise your hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GOIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. GOIN. Don Edward Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. GOIN. 1510 Crockett Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. GOIN. Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. You just moved there, I think, today?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your former address is 1800 Leonard Avenue?

Mr. GOIN. No; that is my business address.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is your business address. That is where you received the letter?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. But your home address is as you just gave it?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. GOIN. Armored car operator.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What organization?

Mr. GOIN. Armored Motor Service Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior with that organization?

Mr. GOIN. Bert Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, Marvin E. Hall is the actual name?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Harold Fleming?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. GOIN. The position with the company, one of the personal administrators. He has another position as general operations manager, I believe, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I was inquiring about your activities in connection with the use of armored cars on November 24, 1963, in an anticipated plan and movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas city jail to the county jail. In the first place, let me ask you, had you been to the police department at all on November 24 until you went with the armored car later?

Mr. GOIN. This was the Sunday morning in question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. No; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that your services would be needed on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. GOIN. Telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Mr. GOIN. From Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. What, approximately?

Mr. GOIN. I think it was 9 or 10 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; at home.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Mr. Hall ask or direct you to do?

Mr. GOIN. Asked if I would come to the office; meet him at the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what it was about on the phone?

Mr. GOIN. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he express to you the necessity for being there quickly?

Mr. GOIN. I honestly don’t recall. I just told him that I would be able to meet him there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you immediately leave your home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; in a matter of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way at all you can think of of fixing the time you left your home?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so, not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within 5 minutes after you finished your telephone conversation with Mr. Hall that you did leave your home?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it would be about closer to 20 minutes after. As I recall, I was in the process of shaving and I finished shaving and dressing.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?

Mr. GOIN. 6329 Denham Court, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive your own automobile down to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. The terminal is located where?

Mr. GOIN. 1800 Leonard Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what route you followed in going from your home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is, please?

Mr. GOIN. The expressway into town across Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. What expressway?

Mr. GOIN. South Central. Followed the freeway to South Central.

Mr. HUBERT. Then South Central to what?

Mr. GOIN. To Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer?

Mr. GOIN. Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer to what?

Mr. GOIN. Let’s see, Bryan to Fairmount, and to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Fairmount to Leonard?

Mr. GOIN. No; Fairmount goes by the office, on the other side of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you estimate it took you to drive from your home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you got there at the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t, offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone there? Were you the first to get there?

Mr. GOIN. No; Mr. Dietrich was there, and I believe Mr. Hall also.

Mr. HUBERT. So was Mr. Fleming there?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t truthfully say.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, two people were there before you?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you proceed to do then after you arrived? What happened?

Mr. GOIN. I talked with Mr. Hall and was advised what we were going to do. I had guessed what we would do, but I had not been advised before then what we would do.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you got there did Mr. Fleming arrive, do you know?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t advise you there.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. GOIN. We got keys to the armored trucks.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were the keys?

Mr. GOIN. In the office.

Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t kept on your person or the person of Mr. Dietrich?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so. They are kept in the office itself.

Mr. HUBERT. In a safe?

Mr. GOIN. In security; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had keys to the office, though?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Who had the keys to the office?

Mr. GOIN. I imagine Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the office was opened and the keys to the truck or trucks were obtained?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who actually obtained those keys?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do it yourself then?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t believe so. I may have. I don’t recall distinctly, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the keys in a safe with a combination?

Mr. GOIN. No. Our office is a security lock.

Mr. HUBERT. So the keys were in a box on a string or something?

Mr. GOIN. On a keyboard in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you all enter the office prior to the arrival of Mr. Fleming, or after?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really tell you that.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, or what did the others do then? First of all, you got the keys, and the next thing that happened was what?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we got the trucks and prepared to leave. There was a little delay in some phone calls, I don’t remember, by Mr. Hall or Mr. Fleming. I can’t really say what was involved. I remember Mr. Dietrich now waiting a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of how much time elapsed between the time you arrived at the terminal and the time you began to move to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. Probably a half hour, I should say, possibly. I don’t recall. I haven’t put any thought on this, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty in starting either of the two trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; there was. Let’s see, I believe truck No. 46 had a new battery and consequently hadn’t been serviced properly or serviced with water and had to be used, what we call service cabled from another battery.

Mr. HUBERT. To get the motor started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that truck No. 46 the larger or the smaller of the two trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it is our largest truck at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the starting up of the truck, larger truck No. 46?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do recall that it was necessary to use another battery with cables to get it started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. But who did the actual work of putting the other battery on to the necessary parts of the truck to get the truck started?

Mr. GOIN. I really can’t give you an honest answer there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether you did it yourself?

Mr. GOIN. I may have been a part of it, but I don’t distinctly remember doing it, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the front hood was opened so that the battery could be started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much of a delay did that occasion, do you know?

Mr. GOIN. Not exactly. Probably 15 minutes. It would be an estimate, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. In--I was trying to think what truck number--in the other truck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the smaller truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Dietrich.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you precede the larger truck, or follow it?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the route that was used to go from the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Ross Avenue to Harwood, down Harwood to the Commerce Street parking on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Commerce Street, where did you park?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the city jail, back exit.

Mr. HUBERT. There is an exit from the city jail coming up from the basement which comes out on Commerce Street?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you had come down Harwood and turned left onto Commerce?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park on the Main Street side of Commerce or the opposite side?

Mr. GOIN. I parked on the north side of Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the north side of Commerce would be to the right of Commerce or to the left, as you were going?

Mr. GOIN. As I were going, it would be to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park ahead or in back of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. The larger truck backed into the dock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, was it ahead of you at that point, or behind you?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly whether I followed him or whether he followed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you parked on the same side of the street of Commerce Street as the exit, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not park on the opposite side of the street where the people were congregating, or did you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you parked there, did you ever move again until ultimately you moved away after the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was parked then past the Commerce Street exit from Harwood Street and on the side of the Commerce Street to your left, rather than the opposite side of Commerce Street, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far past the entrance were you parked, or exit rather?

Mr. GOIN. The exit, a couple of car lengths, I believe. I believe there was a city or county car sitting behind us for a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a city or county car that was parked across the exit and therefore immediately in front of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it was the car that backed in front of the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About when, relative to the time you arrived, did this other car park in front of the armored car?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really give you an answer there, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the shot was fired? Did you hear any shot?

Mr. GOIN. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your car at all at any time?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; left the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. The small one?

Mr. GOIN. The small armored truck on, I think, a couple of occasions and walked back to the back of the truck standing for a moment or for a few minutes, and walking back and getting back in.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never left the immediate vicinity of the small armored truck?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t get other than just a few feet at the most from the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn of the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly. The commotion began with someone trying to get the Ford sedan in front of our big armored truck out of the way, and I don’t recall exactly from what source I learned the actual shooting, or maybe just overheard loud conversations, because I didn’t have any direct conversation with anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing yourself, the police car coming from around Harwood onto Commerce and backing so that it was placed in front of the large armored car? Did you see that yourself?

Mr. GOIN. Would you explain again?

Mr. HUBERT. You have stated to us that after the large armored truck was backed partially into the ramp, that a police car, which I think you said was a Ford, came around and backed up in front of the armored truck, isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you observed that yourself? Did you see it happen?

Mr. GOIN. Partially; if not all the way. I don’t recall exactly if I was in the armored truck when this happened, or standing beside it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do I understand you to say that you are not sure whether you actually saw it, but that you ultimately saw it in that position?

Mr. GOIN. I am sure I saw it moving either in a rear view mirror or was standing beside the truck and saw it, because I was observing as much as I could.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had arrived at the parking position originally did this Ford police car back up in front of the large truck?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t give you an answer to that, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been there some considerable time?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really say.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you--I think you have already stated you were two car lengths from the exit?

Mr. GOIN. If I remember, approximately a couple car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another police car in front of you, or back of you parked in the same manner as you?

Mr. GOIN. I think before we left there was another police car that moved in front of us, I believe, as a lead position. Because as I recall us leaving, he was in front of us, or at least we started out moving and he was in front of us.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand then that there was another police car in addition to the Ford that backed up in front of the large truck, that came and placed itself in front of you, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that car come before or after the first police car came?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you double parked? I mean, were there cars parked on your left along the curbing?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there were.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first drove up, who gave you instructions as to where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. There was policemen on duty in the street.

Mr. HUBERT. And they told you where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. Yes. I am sure that we were double parked and there were other cars on the side.

Mr. HUBERT. On your left?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another car double parked in front of you when you first drove up?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you say that the larger truck backed in into the exit. You must have been ahead of it, isn’t that so? Otherwise it would have had to back around you if it had been ahead of you, isn’t that so?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I followed the larger car. In the trend of thinking back, I believe that I followed the larger car.

Mr. HUBERT. When your larger truck backed into the Commerce Street exit, was it in front of you or in back of you?

Mr. GOIN. Well, if I followed it to the office, it must have been in front, though I can’t remember distinctly that part of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Dietrich ever leave the smaller truck that you were in with him?

Mr. GOIN. I believe he walked down beside the truck with me.

Mr. HUBERT. But no more than that?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Fleming coming out and giving you instructions at any time as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Hall doing so?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Hall?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. It seems, I believe, Mr. Hall come out and spoke at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what instructions you had as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I was in question as to what would actually take place most of the time, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You what?

Mr. GOIN. I was more or less uninformed as to what to do and was waiting instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive them?

Mr. GOIN. No. The commotion began.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the beginning of the commotion, did you get any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we talked. Mr. Hall had said something about traveling down Main Street, and I do not remember if we had agreed that there would be some other men probably want to ride in our truck, security men. I don’t remember if that was discussed with some of the officers there, or with just Mr. Dietrich and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him in the press or on TV or anything of that sort since?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I have seen pictures in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody around there that day that either was Ruby or looked like him?

Mr. GOIN. At that time, I certainly didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. But now that you do know what he looks like, can you tell us whether or not you saw anybody?

Mr. GOIN. I am sorry, I wouldn’t know him if I were to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was no conversation between us this afternoon? I mean tonight, other than what has been recorded by the stenographer, isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Goin. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

TESTIMONY OF MARVIN E. HALL

The testimony of Marvin E. Hall was taken at 3:10 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Marvin E. Hall. Mr. Hall, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Hall, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now Mr. Hall, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a specific request made by a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel, of the staff of the President’s Commission. I understand that you received that letter last Friday, July 10, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. HALL. Marvin E. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that while that is your full name, you are generally known by the name of Bert Hall, B-e-r-t?

Mr. HALL. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is sort of an official nickname?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HALL. 4112 Sun Valley.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HALL. Forty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now?

Mr. HALL. City manager of Armored Motor Service in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same occupation that you had on November 24, 1963?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with that company?

Mr. HALL. Seven years. The reason I hesitate, I am also vice president of the company, but that is not really the main function here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. As manager of the company, do you have occasion to actually drive the vehicles that are used by the company? Did you often do so prior to November 24? Had you done so frequently?

Mr. HALL. Not frequently; as manager of the company, it is our obligation to make sure all our vehicles are in running order. We test drive them, periodically, because we go out on trips with the men. The capacity of driving a vehicle is part of knowing what is going on.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time you became manager, were you connected with the company as a driver?

Mr. HALL. No; as a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed by the FBI on June 24, 1964, the FBI agents interviewing you being Mr. W. James Wood and Manning Clements. I have, heretofore, a few minutes ago, handed to you a report by those two FBI agents of their interview with you. For the purpose of identification, I have marked the document, which consists of four pages, on the first page as follows, to wit: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Bert Hall.” Under which I have signed my name, and I have placed my initials on the succeeding three pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page. I think you have had an opportunity, have you not, sir, to read this 4-page document now marked as Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if this document is correct, or whether you desire to make any corrections or modifications or additions to this document?

Mr. HALL. There are minor adjustments to it; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have called my attention to the fourth paragraph on page 1 of that document, which describes Ed Dietrich as assistant crew chief. What comment have you to make as to that statement?

Mr. HALL. Only that he is crew chief; and I may have been misunderstood by the two men on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he crew chief on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the word “Assistant” should be deleted?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no marks on page 2, and I assume that you have no comment to make other than that it is correct?

Mr. HALL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3, and in the second paragraph you have a mark with reference to the first sentence. I ask you what comment you have to make about that first sentence, which begins with the words “Shortly after” and ends with the words “with a shotgun”?

Mr. HALL. Only that the sentence is worded “A police officer who at this time Hall never knew ...”, and I merely point out that I met the man that morning, and knew his name at that moment, but have forgotten what it was as of this time.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt about his identity as a police officer?

Mr. HALL. Definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other comments to make about that sentence?

Mr. HALL. I remember seeing he was armed with a shotgun, and I am not positive whether the shotgun was his or was a part of the equipment in the truck, since we do have a shotgun in a bracket alongside the seat he occupied.

Mr. HUBERT. On which side of the seat he occupied is that gun bracket placed?

Mr. HALL. Right side.

Mr. HUBERT. On his right side, so that when getting into the seat he was sitting in, he would have to cross over or climb over the bracket, as it were?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say he had a shotgun in his hand. You used the words “armed with a shotgun” and you said you weren’t sure it was the shotgun that normally comes with the truck or one which he brought himself. I take it, therefore, that you saw him with the shotgun in his hand?

Mr. HALL. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether the normal or regular shotgun that normally goes along with the truck was in the bracket as well as the one that he had in his hand?

Mr. HALL. I am not real sure. That is the normal thing to do. If you and I were to crawl into that seat with the purpose intended that we were sitting there for, we would have unbuckled the shotgun and sat there with it. It is in that handy a place.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did have a shotgun?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.