Chapter XXIX: Front Matter (29)

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I could not see that. However, after the jostling, after I had jostled him, we did stand together, I would guess, for 5 or 10 minutes. There was no further exchange, conversation between us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him attempt to talk or talk with other people?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not notice; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the assembly room, where Henry Wade had his press conference, do you recall where you were standing in relationship to Wade and the front of the room?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it is a large room with tables and benches. I would have been to the left side of the room facing what was a standup box, a police lineup box, a screen police lineup box, and some distance back, about one quarter of the distance back--in other words, I was not immediately in the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say the left side of the room----

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Facing this police lineup box, and there was a small stage, a foot perhaps in elevation from the floor level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I have already asked you, when you were down there, you did not see this same man again?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see Ruby again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after the Henry Wade press conference ended?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I stayed there for perhaps a half hour talking to other reporters. Of course, Oswald himself was brought into the room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. And someone put a microphone in his face. He said something about his civil rights being violated. He was taken out. We talked to Wade. He gave us some information. When Wade left, we talked to various--there, again, it was just a general attempt to interview everyone and anyone who knew anything at all about the offense. And I would guess that after about an hour, I went back to the hotel. I am sorry that I am fuzzy on the times, but I have not used my notes to recollect or jog my memory on all these things. I perhaps should have. But I haven’t had an opportunity.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have your notes with you now?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. They would be in the office. I used a regular spiral notebook, and kept pretty full notes. However, I did give a statement to the two agents from the FBI of the Philadelphia office, within a few days after my return to Philadelphia. This would have been before the end of November and the times would, of course, have been a great deal clearer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you use your notes in the course of that interview?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the press conference room for a substantial period of time after Henry Wade left, or did you follow out and do something?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I would say between a half hour and an hour. In other words, when all of the police officials and other municipal officials of Dallas left, there was no one else to talk to, so I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the police department that night, then?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, it would have been from perhaps 8 p.m. Dallas time, Friday night, November 22, until perhaps somewhere between 2 and 3 a.m. of the Saturday following, November 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is it your best recollection that you returned to the police department during the day on Saturday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Probably about 10 a.m., and I say that again without any vivid recollection, but because of the fact that we are an afternoon paper and we are publishing in that period. And this was my assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall what you were doing and whether you were at the police department between approximately 2 in the afternoon on Saturday and 6 in the evening?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I cannot recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the police department some time Sunday morning?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to the police department Sunday morning at about 9:30 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you station yourself?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went first to--again--to the police headquarters offices on the third floor, and then went down to the basement garage after it was explained to me that Oswald would be moved to the basement garage level in a special elevator serving the cell block, and would be taken from the basement level, put in a vehicle, and taken to the county prison.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before Oswald actually came out did you go down into the basement?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, it is a guess. I would say an hour, an hour and a half. I was there quite a long time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were standing at the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; this I recall very clearly, because I stood on a guard railing protecting a ramp leading to a parking level in the garage. This was a metal railing perhaps 2 feet high, and I stood there supporting myself against a very wide concrete pillar to get a better look at what was going on. There were so many people there, it was difficult to get a decent look, because of my height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar--as you are down there in that basement, and you are standing on that guard railing, looking toward the jail office--that Commerce Street is on your left, or to the south, and Main Street is on your right, or to the north?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not too familiar with the streets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you a sheet of paper. Why don’t you draw a diagram of that basement, and see if we cannot locate you in reference most particularly to the ramp and the jail office.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This on an overall basis would be the municipal building. This cross section would be the basement level. Leading into the garage section of the basement is a door. And this section right here is, I think it is called, the police check-in room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jail office?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to write in there “Jail Office” where that is?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There is a door then leading into the corridor. This is the ramp. It is a slight grade, leading down to the parking levels on either side of the ramp. There are several large pillars, I guess over 2 feet square, concrete pillars, along here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to write in there what is the ramp that the automobiles come in from the streets.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. These would be--as a matter of fact, this is the in lane, and this is the out lane.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have drawn an arrow indicating the in lane which is Main Street, if you want to write that in.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I didn’t know the names of the streets there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, the out, or up ramp is Commerce Street.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was there for a sufficiently long time, for instance, that there were very few reporters there when I arrived. The police officers on duty asked me several times for credentials, which I showed. I was there while they went into parked police cars and removed from the parked police cars weapons which they took somewhere into the jail office. I was there when they backed in an armored car from the Commerce Street exit. They could not get it very far back because of overhead ducts, the heating ducts serving the building. So they had to leave the armored car virtually at the exit. It was parked then on an incline.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The railing that I mentioned leads along this ramp, and actually it is two metal bars. And I stood on the upper metal bar, leaning against this pillar. In other words, my position would have been here, where I am putting this “X.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state for the record that you have marked a position on the railing which is along what I will call the entrance to the garage. You might write “garage” there. And it is not the railing that is actually on the Commerce Street ramp, or Main Street ramp.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually--that is right. I was immediately against the pillar. In other words, I was using the pillar for support.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the Commerce Street side of the garage?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you stood up there on that pillar, or on that railing, do you remember an automobile coming out of the garage and coming up the Main Street ramp just shortly before Oswald came out?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. I remember one car coming out of the parking level and heading toward the Commerce Street ramp, and parking there. Because, for awhile I feared--had it not moved forward, it would have blocked my vision. But it did move forward slightly toward Commerce Street, and then it did give me a clear view.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ability you had to see from the position that you were at up to the top of the Main Street ramp, and to distinguish faces and figures?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This would have been very limited. I made no effort to look in that direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My real question is do you recall----

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I don’t recall. I may add--the area along the inner part of the ramp, that is the part of the ramp closest to the parking garage, and nearest to Main Street, was pretty well taken up by television cameras, the heavy rolling type, rather than the hand type of equipment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any initial instructions that were given to the press people in the basement, as to where they were to station themselves?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we were told by several police officers--as a matter of fact, from the first moment of my entry into this area, I was told that we were to station ourselves along the ramp, not too close to the exits, and once we were told that Oswald was on his way down, that we were not to move at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any instruction being given that you were to remain on the garage side of the railings that border the automobile ramp?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I don’t recall any such instructions, because at one point. I was standing against a wall, which would be the side of the ramp away from the garage area, and closer to Commerce Street. But I left that, there again, because I had no vision--there was nothing I could see from that particular point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any instructions being given that people were not to station themselves across the Main Street ramp from the railing to the wall?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I heard no such instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to observe what efforts were being made on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to check identification of newspaper people?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I myself thought that the security in the garage area on Sunday was fairly strong. In other words, I was asked at least four or five times for credentials. And when I moved to this position here----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The one on the railing?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Indicated by the “X” on the railing--a police officer came over and told me first to get down until I showed him credentials, and then he let me stand. There was some--both Friday night and Saturday there were also occasional checks made. I would say that at least twice on Friday night, and probably twice on Saturday, when I was in and out of the municipal building, that I was asked for press credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this as you were entering or leaving the building?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. On Friday night it was as we left the elevator to the third floor, which is located at the police offices, the departmental offices. On Saturday we were asked for credentials before we were permitted into the elevators, leading up to that floor. And, again, as we got off the elevator--they were designated by colored patches on their shoulders--there were a number of auxiliary police officers on duty Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Pollak, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

Mr. POLLAK. I would just ask whether the witness saw anybody other than the man he thought was Ruby who did not appear to be authorized as a newsman in the third floor corridor on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No. Well, the other robbery units and auto theft were still trying to function Friday night, and moved their people into this crowd along the corridor. So there were what would be civilians and, I suppose, people having business with the police department moving in and out of there constantly.

Mr. POLLAK. Did these people you just referred to--were they normally escorted by a police officer?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; they were always with an officer, and went into one of the other offices. As I say, I remember specifically there were some sailors in uniform, and a man reporting a stolen automobile--these things you remember because when anybody came along the corridor, none of us had any idea who it might be coming, and everyone watched to see who it was. Incidentally, while I saw the shooting of Oswald, I was not at that time able to identify the man who did the shooting as the same man I had seen in the corridor, because as he moved out of the crowd of people along the ramp toward Oswald, all that I could see was a side view and the back of the head. It was a different type of hat, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The hat was different?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it was a gray felt hat, or a dark gray felt hat, on Sunday--not the sporty type porkpie that I had seen Friday night. It wasn’t actually until I saw a full face photograph of the man on television and in the newspapers that I was sure who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in person?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the term that you were sure who it was. Is there any hesitancy or doubt in your mind?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; not in my own mind. In other words, I would say my own personal identification would be that the man I saw in the corridor outside the police headquarters on Friday is the same man who was later arrested for the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked for the purposes of identification the diagram that you have drawn here as John G. McCullough Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.

(The document referred to was marked John G. McCullough Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the purpose of our record, I would like you to sign that below where I have marked it.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. With the qualification that I make no pretext of being an engineer or architect. As a matter of fact, the ramp that I have indicated is not--is slightly closer to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The garage entrance?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The garage entrance; yes. The ramp leading to the garage entrance is closer to Commerce Street than it would indicate on this sketch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if it is reassuring to you, we already have a diagram, a chart that has been previously made up of the basement. I think the diagram you have drawn for us indicates with a fair degree of accuracy.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The other thing that would help me to see what happened in there, was the fact that it was so well lighted by the television cameras. Stark lighting, it almost seemed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a second exhibit which I have marked as John G. McCullough Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

(The document referred to was marked John G. McCullough Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an interview report prepared by two FBI Agents, John R. Wienberg, and Stanley S. Czarnecki. They prepared this report as a result of interviewing you in Philadelphia on December 1, 1963. The report consists of four pages numbered consecutively at the bottom, for the purpose of our records as 448, 449--five pages--450, 451, 452. Having read the document that we have marked as Exhibit No. 2, would you tell us whether or not that is an accurate report of the interview that these FBI agents had with you on December 1?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This would be an accurate report. And in addition I would say that the times that I gave to the FBI agents would be better than the times I have given here because it was taken so close to the time of the actual incidents in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back once again to the identification of the man you think was Ruby. Were you continuously on the third floor from the time that you arrived on Friday night at the police station until you saw this man with the Alpacuna box?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. If I was not, it was just briefly to leave and reach a telephone, to try to reach some other member of the Bulletin staff moving around Dallas. In other words, any absence would not be more than 5 or 10 minutes. Because all of the action I was covering was confined to that one floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a man on the third floor who was standing near the homicide office and was identifying members of the police department, most particularly Captain Fritz and Chief Curry, to members of the press?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There were several persons doing this. The persons who were making these identifications for me, actually, however, were local Dallas reporters, two men and a woman. All carrying press credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of those persons--obviously not the woman--but did either of the two men bear any resemblance that you recall to Jack Ruby?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; none at all. The man that I believed to be Ruby was quite stocky. The two reporters were slight, one wore glasses. I believe they were both light-haired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I were to tell you that so far as we have been able to determine Jack Ruby did not own an overcoat such as you have described, and in fact was not wearing an overcoat on Friday night, would that in any way affect the positiveness of the identification?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Not the overcoat: no. Because, as I say, the only time I looked at this clothing really is as I was coming down, and from the top--what I saw actually was a dark outer coat which I assumed was a topcoat. If I said overcoat, I meant a topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you certain in your mind that this man did have a topcoat or outer coat on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. I paid it no particular heed at the time, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, again, bearing in mind what I have said, that Ruby is not known by anybody else who believes they saw him on Friday night to have been wearing any sort of an outer coat, would that alter the certainty with which you have identified him here today?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No. Actually, because the identification--what makes me believe that the man I bumped into and talked to at least for a moment was Ruby was his face, not the clothing.

Mr. POLLAK. I wonder if we could get a fuller description of the hat he was wearing.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The hat that I have called a porkpie hat is a hat with a flat top rather than with the crease that you usually find in a felt hat. It was made of--well, for want of a better word I will use--a hairy material, rather than the soft felt material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a characteristic of this man’s clothing that is firmly impressed on your mind as his face?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; yes. Because there, again, as I say, I took a look at him as I was coming down, and the fact that there was no crease, and it was not the usual type of felt hat did stick in my mind, even before I saw his face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated earlier that the hat that you believed Ruby was wearing when he shot Oswald was a different kind of hat from the one you saw on Friday night.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever actually seen the hat that Ruby was wearing on Sunday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; just from my view, there again, that I had in the garage at the time of the shooting. I have never actually seen the hat to examine it as such.

Mr. POLLAK. Could we ask Mr. McCullough about the movements the man actually made who did shoot Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn’t going to ask him the question, because we have the films. But if you have a question, Mr. Pollak, go ahead and ask him.

Mr. POLLAK. You did observe Ruby step forward and shoot Oswald?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I saw a man in effect move out of the line of people along the ramp, and, frankly, at first I thought he was a photographer who was disobeying the instructions against any movement. And then I saw his arm come up, and I momentarily wondered whether he was going to try to shake hands with someone there. Then I saw the flash of metal in his hand--there, again, under these tremendously bright lights. And I saw, or heard the shot, heard a shot, saw a flash of flame against Oswald’s sweater. And then there was complete confusion in the garage area. There were policemen actually throwing themselves, sliding along the tops of the parked automobiles to get at the scene of this melee that was underway there.

Mr. POLLAK. Could you tell us, Mr. McCullough, where this man, Ruby, was in the garage when he first came to your attention?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, the first time I noticed him at all is when he detached himself from the crowd, in other words when he walked forward from the crowd along the ramp.

Mr. POLLAK. You did not see him, observe him moving into that crowd at any time?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Not, not at all. The first time I noticed him was when he moved toward the two police officers and Oswald, who was between the two officers. And I did hear someone call out--the exact words were, “Jack, Jack, you son-of-a-bitch.” And some other reporters said that they thought it came from--that some of the phrase came from the man who did the shooting. But it seemed to me it came from a policeman who was standing in the corridor opposite the entrance to the booking room. And I got a look at this officer when he moved into the group around Ruby, and found him later on the third floor, and he did say it was he who shouted out, and that his assignment was the vice squad in Dallas, and that he recognized Ruby as Ruby moved toward Oswald. The officer’s name is in that statement, but what it is--I forget it, myself, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have it in the statement, and this is going to be a part of the statement.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. And the officer told me and told other reporters this at the same time--that he knew Ruby from his regular patrol work as a vice squad officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might be pertinent to our investigation that you have observed that we have not talked about here today, or which you did not mention in the interview on December 1?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The only thing that might be worthy of mention is the fact that when Wade, the police chief, and the homicide squad Captain Fritz talked to reporters, they were under constant pressure to produce Oswald. As a matter of fact, on many occasions, late Friday night, early Saturday morning, they were told by various reporters that they owed an obligation to this country and the whole world to let them see the man who shot the President. And this, I think, is why they did produce----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually hear some reporters say that?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. POLLAK. In that vein, did you hear any insinuations being made that the Dallas Police Department might have been mistreating Oswald?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Only from Oswald. He at one time, when he was walking along the corridor--and here I don’t know whether he was on his way to this press conference, for want of a better word, or whether he was leaving. He said something about his sanitary rights were being violated. One of the policemen said he wants to take a shower. Oswald himself, the first time I saw him, in the lineup room--there, again, at the basement level--he held his hands high so that the handcuffs he was wearing would be seen on camera. And this struck me as a little unusual, because having had many, many years as a police reporter, I have seen people who were charged with crimes try to cover their face. He made no such movement. He was just trying to display the handcuffs, which struck me as odd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that it would have been proper or improper for the police department not to have permitted news media representatives on the third floor on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, my own personal opinion--I feel that it would have been perfectly proper for them to have not permitted news media representatives on that particular floor. But there, again, having said this, I would like also to say I don’t think there is any police department in the country that is set up to handle an investigation following the assassination of a President. I think they were extremely sensitive to public opinion, and were trying to do their best to show that they were doing a good job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other police departments have you had experience with in your years as a reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, as a police reporter it was pretty much in Philadelphia. But as far as security around a President--I have traveled with several Presidents, in political campaigns and tours, and so that I have seen the police operate in New York and Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years experience have you had in Philadelphia as a police reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Ten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking here now for a personal opinion. In your estimation, do the police have an affirmative obligation to render affirmative assistance to newspaper reporters in covering matters?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I think they do. Yes; so long as it does not hinder the investigation, as such. Actually, I think that in most cases this can be done without any hindrance to the investigation. Of course, while I say it would have been proper for the Dallas police to have not permitted the reporters in the immediate vicinity of the area where Oswald was being questioned, I think--I cannot think of any city where I could have expected the thing to be handled in a different way than from what it was handled in Dallas. I think the thing was a crime of such magnitude that the police themselves wanted--having had an arrest, I think that they were then anxious to show that they had solved the shooting, and that they were trying to erase what they considered to be a stigma on the name of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back over your experiences on those 3 days, do you have any suggestions as to how the police could have handled the press consistent with what you consider to be their obligation to render assistance to the press in the performance of the press duties?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Nothing, beyond the fact that they might have, and there would have been a tremendous yell of censorship and violation of freedom of the press--they could have kept the media, the news media, in one area, and established some sort of a liaison, appointing an officer to bring information to them. This I have never seen done. But it could be done. It is entirely a personal opinion. I think that the Dallas police performed pretty well. As I say, I was asked constantly for credentials. And most of the reporters near me were also asked for credentials. Especially on the morning--Sunday morning, in which it was planned to move Oswald, they were very strict.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it would have been proper or improper for the police to have barred the press from the basement area at the time that Oswald was being transferred?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I think what they did was proper. In other words, I feel that they felt that they had the situation under complete control. That had everyone stayed in the positions, with no movement, that there was sufficient space in there to guard the prisoner and to move him out without anything going wrong in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that on the assumption that there was nobody in there bent upon shooting him.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is right. There, again, you don’t want to get too much personal opinion there, but I think it is possible at any time for anyone who really wants to kill somebody to do it--a public official or anyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that our record may be complete here, how many years experience have you had as a newspaper reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Twenty-six years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to your giving your testimony here this morning, have I or any other member of the staff of this Commission discussed your testimony with you?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; not at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Pollak, do you have any further questions?

Mr. POLLAK. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything, Mr. McCullough?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me thank you for coming here. Your assistance has been considerable to us, and we appreciate it very much.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I don’t know whether it has been of any value. But I am delighted to fulfill the request.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are happy that you could come. And, again, I thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM KLEINMAN

The testimony of Abraham Kleinman was taken at 11:35 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I am Abe Kleinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am a member of the general counsel staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our normal procedure to explain a little bit about what we are doing here before we ask you to testify.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and it has been directed to investigate, evaluate, and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today particularly because you were acquainted with Jack Ruby, and we would like to find out what light you can shed upon Jack Ruby and his involvement in the events of November 22, 23, and 24.

Under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been designated to take your deposition today. Also, under these rules, the witness is entitled to have a written notice 3 days before he appears to testify. I might ask you if you have received such a notice.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes; I received that Sunday. I wasn’t there but it was signed for in my sister’s hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you actually see it?

Mr. KLEINMAN. The notice here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you have had 3 days?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes; I called Monday to find out about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you first of all, do you have any questions about what is taking place here? And if so, I will try to answer them for you.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I really don’t know what, except what I read. That is, that you wanted me to come up here and answer some questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we proceed with the testimony, and if you have any questions, you may ask them.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I wouldn’t have any questions, because I don’t know just what you want or what I could tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to ask you some questions and we will see what answers we can get. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t have any, because I don’t know very much about it, except I knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you then if you will raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Abraham Kleinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you spell it?

Mr. KLEINMAN. K-l-e-i-n-m-a-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Kleinman?

Mr. KLEINMAN. 1189B Timplemore Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That is near White Rock Lake.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. KLEINMAN. December 16, 1902.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a trade or profession?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I am a public accountant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a public accountant?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I started practicing after I got out of the service in 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in the Dallas area?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I have lived here in Dallas about 58 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pretty close to a native.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Pretty close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first met Jack Ruby?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I really don’t recall when or how I met him, but I guess it’s been maybe 12 or 13 or maybe less, somewhere in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you began to do accounting work for him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I have. I did accounting work for him. He wanted me to work out his corporation returns for the State and the Federal, but I have never been able to complete it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that he asked you to do that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. It was sometime in 1962, the latter part of 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever do any work for him before that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes. I checked some records for him with the Internal Revenue. I don’t recall when.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him on a social basis between the time you first met him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Not socially. I would know him like you meet anyone and know him, as an acquaintance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you meet him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, sometimes I would run into him downtown. And while I was doing work for him, he would come by the office, and I would have to go by his place of business on Commerce Street to the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit the Carousel Club from time to time?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I had visited there a number of times maybe around the latter part of the month to bring him some reports to sign, or get the social security withheld, or get his tax reports out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bring any records to you on a monthly basis?

Mr. KLEINMAN. He was supposed to. He brought quite a few records. There was a lot of records missing that he brought up later. We were trying to accumulate all the records to work up his report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from an examination of the records that he did bring you whether or not the Carousel Club was a profitable operation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, from the looks of it, it didn’t look like it was too profitable, as far as I could tell. Of course, I never did get the final, get to make a final.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any indication that he was actually losing money?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, at times he said it was losing money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the records substantiate that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, that I couldn’t say because I didn’t have all the records, all of his paid receipts. And over a period of 6 or 8 months, why he would find additional receipts and bring to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Receipts meaning?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Paid bills such as for merchandise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there were any missing, that would only reduce his profit?

Mr. KLEINMAN. If it were missing, it would increase his profit, because it wouldn’t be charged off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you mean for tax purposes?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was thinking of for straight business accounting whether you could tell from the records whether he had a net profit after everything was taken off.

Mr. KLEINMAN. It is hard to say in that business because you would have to take in a certain amount of money. You don’t know whether you have a profit or loss until you bring in all of your expenditures, your entertaining help and other help that he might have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the basis though of what he did bring in to you, did he show a net profit?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I didn’t get that far on it, because there was a lot of information that he had there that I couldn’t identify readily, and I had to get him to explain some of the transactions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his religious beliefs?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Beg your pardon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his religious beliefs?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express to you any concern or sensitivity about his position in Dallas as a Jewish person?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; I have never gone into it. I never discussed anything like that with him. In the first place, when he came up to see me, the main thing I was interested in was getting his reports that he had to file quarterly, because they were behind originally, and I was trying to get him up to date on it, and it took up so much time, that I couldn’t discuss anything with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where Jack Ruby maintained his bank account?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he had a small bank account. I think it is in the Merchants State Bank. I think that is the name of the bank. I have got it in the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other, that you recall?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No. There might have been another account, but I don’t remember what bank it would be, because the bank accounts he had were very small. I think most of his business was handled out of his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Ruby’s friend, George Senator?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I met him downtown. I met him, if I remember correctly, I first met him in the Statler’s Men Shop. I think he was selling. He was a salesman representing, I don’t know whether it is men’s line or what line of merchandise it is he was representing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him at all on November 22 or 23 or 24?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Who is that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. George Senator.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think so. I don’t remember seeing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, where were you at the time you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I was in this restaurant that burned down here on Commerce Street next to the Picadilly. I don’t know whether it is right next to it, or either one door away. Someone came in and said the President had been shot, and I knew that the parade had just passed by. I was on Akard and Main Street. And we thought they were kidding because it was so fast, they would get the news out so quick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I walked up the street there to Sol’s Turf Bar and they had it turned on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on Friday at Sol’s?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t remember. I usually go by there every evening. He is one of my clients.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were Friday evening?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I could remember exactly where I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you have occasion to go to Sol’s Turf Bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes. I usually go there on Saturdays to make up their payroll, and that Saturday, if I am not mistaken, I was at the barber shop until about, oh, maybe 2:30 or a quarter to three. Then when I left there I went over to Sol’s to make up the payroll, and Jack Ruby was in there that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack in there when you walked in the door, or was it sometime later?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he was in there when I walked in, and he left within about, oh, just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Jack when you first saw him in the bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That afternoon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KLEINMAN. He was in Sol’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts? In a booth, or at a table, or along the bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; he was standing there talking to two or three people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who those people were?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t recall. One of them was Frank Belocchio. I don’t recall who else was in there. There was a group of people in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you saw Jack?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I didn’t do anything. I said hello to him. He was showing them some pictures that he either made or he took off of a signpost somewhere regarding somebody that put them on there. I think the sign was supposed to read, or did read--I didn’t take a good look at it--to impeach Warren. And, of course, I hadn’t heard anything about it, and I didn’t even know where he got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack say anything about those pictures?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t remember what he said, but he seemed to be upset about the pictures. I don’t know what their conversation was before I came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conversation after you came in?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t think there was anything except, you know, he mentioned about those pictures on the Warren impeachment, and then they were looking at an advertisement out of the News. Someone had a full page advertisement about President Kennedy, I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether or not he knew who Mr. Warren was?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No: he didn’t. Well. I imagine he knew that he was a Chief Justice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he upset about the photograph?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there at that conversation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t know how long I did stay in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you present during the conversation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think I was there over 2 or 3 minutes, because I went back in the back to try to get the payroll out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Ralph Paul?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, just a very short time. Jack introduced me to him up at the club, and, of course, I knew the name from the records that I was working on, but I don’t know him very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see Ralph Paul at any time the weekend the President was shot?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see any friends or employees of Jack Ruby on that weekend?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir. I believe he closed the place up on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a document which is an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Lansing P. Logan, and Alton E. Bramblett. I am going to mark this document “Abraham Kleinman, Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.” This report consists of 3 pages that are numbered consecutively, 317, 318, and 319. The report pertains to an interview which Logan and Bramblett had with you on December 7, 1963. I will ask you to look at that and read it and tell me if it is an accurate report of the conversation they had with you on that day.

Mr. KLEINMAN (after reading). No; it’s got one mistake here. It says certified. I am not certified. I am a registered public accountant. This 59 here, I think I may have said 59, but it is about--I am 61 last December--about 58 years here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that pertain to? What does the year 1953 refer to?

Mr. KLEINMAN. It don’t say. It just says 59 years here in the Dallas area. That is close enough. That is about right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any additions or corrections that you think should be in this?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I know of any. I don’t recall any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you then if you will sign your name on the first page and initial the next 2 pages.

Mr. KLEINMAN (signs and initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just any place that is conspicuous. Thank you very much.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t recall anything else that I would know. In fact, I have been so darn busy I haven’t had time to even read the paper. I have read some of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything that should come to your attention that you think would be valuable to the Commission, I will appreciate your letting us know.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sometime you hear a lot of different conversations which it doesn’t make sense. People form opinions and this and that. It is all foreign to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information of anything about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the Dallas Police Department on November 24?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; that I didn’t. I don’t know how he could get in there myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information pertaining to anybody who might have given him any assistance or urged him in any way?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming here. It was nice to meet you.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Nice meeting you.

TESTIMONY OF WILMA MAY TICE

The testimony of Wilma May Tice was taken at 3:20 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record while Mrs. Tice is here, that I have talked with your husband for a few minutes and I have explained to him that the decision as to whether or not other people are to be in the hearing room with us is the one that the witness makes, and that we have permitted public hearings at the request of the witness, and we have had private hearings at most of these. After I talked with him at some length, I think he agreed with me that if it was your wish that he not be in here, that we go ahead and have this as a private hearing. So I will first of all ask you, Mrs. Tice, if you would like to go ahead privately, or if you would prefer to have your husband in here?

Mrs. TICE. I would prefer not to have my husband in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I want to explain to you preliminarily that what we are doing here and how we are set up and then I will ask you to take the oath and testify.

Mrs. TICE. Let me ask you first, is this to be told to my husband?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not tell your husband about it, but we are taking a printed transcript and these will all be public records eventually, and it will certainly be available to your husband to read if he should ever want to. Now, if you would prefer not to testify about this, why I think that we are not going to ask you to do it.

Mrs. TICE. You mean I don’t have to testify? I don’t have to say anything if I don’t want to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; if you would prefer not to testify, why, I am not going to compel you to do it. We asked you to come here because the FBI had interviewed you, and we wanted to get under oath what they had reported to us previously. But as I say, if you have domestic reasons why you don’t want to talk about this, we are certainly not going to force you to do it.

Mrs. TICE. Will I be subpenaed later for something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not subpena you. The report is in the records.

Mrs. TICE. There is nothing I want to retract.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can’t assure you that the Ruby family won’t ask you to testify in court some day.

Mrs. TICE. Well, what is it you want to know from me now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we were going to talk to you about matters that you talked to the FBI about.

Mrs. TICE. That is all?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all.

Mrs. TICE. OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you rather think about this? There is no reason why you have to make a decision today about it.

Mrs. TICE. Well, I mean if you just want me to tell you the story, that story over again, I would rather do it right now, because my husband is so upset now because I had to come up here again with that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know that we can’t, that the chances are 99 out of 100 that your husband will find out what your testimony was. You are aware of that?

Mrs. TICE. Is that from a promise that you made that he would be able to see it later?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that is simply because this is all going to be a part of a public record, and it will be available for anyone to look at, and it will be easily accessible to anyone in Dallas to look at.

Mrs. TICE. When?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a couple of months.

Mrs. TICE. Not before that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whenever the report is published. I would guess in early fall that the report will be out.

Mrs. TICE. Well, go ahead and ask me whatever you want to ask me now, whatever it is you want to know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you then that the Commission, as you know, was set up to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have already explained why we have asked you to come here, and I am designated under the rules of the Commission to take your testimony.

Now, I might also advise you that you are entitled to be represented by counsel and consult with an attorney if you would like to before you come in here. Also, you are entitled to have 3 days’ written notice before you come to testify. Did you get a letter from us, incidentally?

Mrs. TICE. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if you would like to consult with an attorney before you testify, we can let you do that, too. Be happy to.

Mrs. TICE. I got this from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. TICE. It said that Hubert, Jr. and Burt Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin.

Mrs. TICE. This letter here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes ma’am.

Mrs. TICE. Well, what do you want to know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. I hope we understand that you are testifying freely and voluntarily. Do you have any reservations about testifying?